Marketers look at what makes their product special and capitalize on how that difference is important.

I have been hearing a lot about how loneliness and isolation is bad for a person's health.

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Maybe, we could tell people that Esperanto clubs are good for your health. Just food for thought.

Forgive my bluntness but it smacks of typical marketing manipulation. Esperanto clubs are not specifically good for people's health, social interaction is a good part of mental health and that could be a chess club, a rambler's group or anything that suits the needs of the person in question.

Marketing, which used to be promotion of something so that people who wanted it would know where to find it, has lost its way and become the art of lying and aggrandising for pure gain. I don't think Esperanto should be associated with that sort of deception.

Vestitor:Forgive my bluntness but it smacks of typical marketing manipulation. Esperanto clubs are not specifically good for people's health, social interaction is a good part of mental health and that could be a chess club, a rambler's group or anything that suits the needs of the person in question.

Marketing, which used to be promotion of something so that people who wanted it would know where to find it, has lost its way and become the art of lying and aggrandising for pure gain. I don't think Esperanto should be associated with that sort of deception.

Marketing lost its way since day one. Though there has always been honest marketing, there also has always been sham marketing. By "marketing," I don't think Alkanadi meant either of the two. If we paraphrase him, he's saying that learning Esperanto and getting involved with a club of like-minded people is, in fact, the same as getting involved with other sorts of clubs of like-minded people; something that is, indeed, very healthy. So An Esperanto club, as do many clubs, can provide less depression and a more healthy state of mind.

I think it is only Alkanadi's unfortunate use of the word "marketing" that strikes somewhat foul in his expression of promoting a healthy state of mind. But that aside, I'm all for learning Esperanto, or any language, in which one can share one's excitement with others about the process, finding healthy social interactivity as a bonus.

Vestitor:Forgive my bluntness but it smacks of typical marketing manipulation. [...]Marketing, which used to be promotion of something so that people who wanted it would know where to find it, has lost its way and become the art of lying and aggrandising for pure gain. I don't think Esperanto should be associated with that sort of deception.

and

Starkmann: Marketing lost its way since day one. Though there has always been honest marketing, there also has always been sham marketing.

As a Marketing major I take umbrage at this mischaracterization of marketing. In its fullest meaning, characterization includes every aspect of selling and buying a product or service from the conception of a product to post-purchase support (tech support, customer service, etc.)

To say that marketing has become "the art of lying and aggrandizing for pure gain" or it has "lost its way since day one" disparages a large segment of the business world and the people working in that field. It would be on par with saying "Medicine has lost its way since day one. Sure there have been honest doctors, but from the get-go there have been quacks."

Surely there is a difference between promoting an idea and marketing a product.

Esperanto is an idea which can bring people together and hence overcome loneliness. Unlike things like church attendance it is open to everyone who is prepared to make an effort to learn it.

Learning Esperanto can have direct health benefits. Bilingual people are less likely to suffer from dementia.

Esperanto could be particularly beneficial to native English speakers. It can be learnt quuickly and can act as a "springboard" to learning other languages and help overcome the perceived problem of wasting time learning the "wrong" language, because you don't know in advance which language(s) will be useful.

FoxtrotUniform:

Vestitor:Forgive my bluntness ... (trimmed for space, see above

and

Starkmann: Marketing lost its way since day one. Though there has always been honest marketing, there also has always been sham marketing.

As a Marketing major I take umbrage at this mischaracterization of marketing. In its fullest meaning, characterization includes every aspect of selling and buying a product or service from the conception of a product to post-purchase support (tech support, customer service, etc.)

To say that marketing has become "the art of lying and aggrandizing for pure gain" or it has "lost its way since day one" disparages a large segment of the business world and the people working in that field. It would be on par with saying "Medicine has lost its way since day one. Sure there have been honest doctors, but from the get-go there have been quacks."

I stand by what I wrote. In medicine if you con people, they either get more ill or they die. Normally people get prosecuted for it. Regulation seeks to remove quackery. Not the same.

Marketing now heavily employs what can only be described as 'manipulative tricks' brought in from expensive psychological research to capitalise on certain common human psychological traits, which more-or-less ensure manipulation outside of the alleged 'choice' model so heavily promoted in market systems.

It's a far cry from mere baseline advertising or raising awareness. The refinement of PR, advertising and marketing is a story of refining a type of coercion, which of course relies upon a certain narcissism and passivity of whomever is being coerced. And the deepest pockets often get the best return.

I agree with your central point, that marketing is a tool, but it is rarely used in a neutral way.

Vestitor:Marketing now heavily employs what can only be described as 'manipulative tricks' brought in from expensive psychological research to capitalise on certain common human psychological traits, which more-or-less ensure manipulation outside of the alleged 'choice' model so heavily promoted in market systems.

I think there is more to marketing than manipulating people. Marketing is much different than the art of mentalism.

Alkanadi:

Vestitor:Marketing now heavily employs what can only be described as 'manipulative tricks' brought in from expensive psychological research to capitalise on certain common human psychological traits, which more-or-less ensure manipulation outside of the alleged 'choice' model so heavily promoted in market systems.

I think there is more to marketing than manipulating people. Marketing is much different than the art of mentalism.

You're right, mentalists are generally far more honest about their trickery.

FoxtrotUniform:

Starkmann: Marketing lost its way since day one. Though there has always been honest marketing, there also has always been sham marketing.

As a Marketing major I take umbrage at this mischaracterization of marketing. In its fullest meaning, characterization includes every aspect of selling and buying a product or service from the conception of a product to post-purchase support (tech support, customer service, etc.)

To say that marketing has become "the art of lying and aggrandizing for pure gain" or it has "lost its way since day one" disparages a large segment of the business world and the people working in that field. It would be on par with saying "Medicine has lost its way since day one. Sure there have been honest doctors, but from the get-go there have been quacks."

Your statement, Fox, "In its fullest meaning, characterization includes every aspect of selling and buying a product or service from the conception of a product to post-purchase support (tech support, customer service, etc.)" only verifies the the truth and reality that from the beginning to end of any business undertaking--more broadly, wherever there are people--there is corruption. That is what I mean by "lost its way since day one. Going out the gate, Cain doesn't like Abel's business, and kills him.

Did you note, though, that I said that there has always been honest marketing? Indeed, there has always been honest business, all around us, but as a whole, corruption in every facet of life has far ruled the day. This world of ours, the only one we have, is quickly moving towards a whirl wind of financial chaos because of people having lost their way in the greed, power and corruption.

So, though I stand by what I said, I also want to be clear that I appreciate people like you, Fox, who are making a difference, who are not lost on their way!

Starkmann:
Your statement, Fox, "In its fullest meaning, characterization includes every aspect of selling and buying a product or service from the conception of a product to post-purchase support (tech support, customer service, etc.)" only verifies the the truth and reality that from the beginning to end of any business undertaking--more broadly, wherever there are people--there is corruption. That is what I mean by "lost its way since day one. Going out the gate, Cain doesn't like Abel's business, and kills him.

I don't often get to the philosophy department, so I'm a little out of my league as to how to defend the proposition that all people aren't basically corrupt. So I won't even try.

I'm not sure that Cain slew Able because Able was a shepherd and Cain, a farmer, couldn't join in a chorus of "The Sheep-men and the Farmers Should be Friends" but because Able's sacrifice was acceptable to God and Cain's wasn't.

I NEVER get over to the theology department, so I'm not touching the rest with a ten-foot pole.

Did you note, though, that I said that there has always been honest marketing?

I did and I alluded to that in my answer.

Indeed, there has always been honest business, all around us, but as a whole, corruption in every facet of life has far ruled the day. This world of ours, the only one we have, is quickly moving towards a whirl wind of financial chaos because of people having lost their way in the greed, power and corruption.

I guess I'm more of an optimist than that. I don't see people as basically corrupt. Are people basically honest who sometimes lie, or are people basically liars who sometimes speak true? I think they are basically honest, but I don't have the tools to defend the point so I'll just say I stand by what I said, and not attempt to defend it.