Beiträge: 12
Sprache: English
LordRatte (Profil anzeigen) 24. April 2016 19:36:25
If I want to break off mid sentence, as with aposiopesis, in English, I can break off midway through the infinitive but in Esperanto, I can't.
It may seem like a trivial difference, but it can really influence a conversation. If I say, "I want to...", people will generally understand the completion of the sentence to be an action.
However, the equivalent in Esperanto would roughly be, "Mi volas..." i.e. "I want..." This could be completed with an object as well as a verb.
Long question summarised: is there a grammatical token that can be used as the "to" in infinitives?
Afterthought: In Latin, prepositions are built into the verbs with conjugations yet it still has verbs. I'd imagine this is for poetic reasons and emphasis. So I wouldn't be surprised if Esperanto had a similar dynamic here.
bartlett22183 (Profil anzeigen) 24. April 2016 20:35:08
I recall long years ago in elementary French class here in the USA, there were some students who were baffled, almost uncomprehending, that "Je suis allant" was not perfectly good French for English "I am going." They had just not internalized that French is not merely English with other words substituted.
It is no different with Esperanto, which simply is not English with other words substituted. It is not. Any language has its own structure and ways of doing things, and learners just have to grapple with that. So no, Esperanto just does not have a grammatical particle corresponding to English verb 'to', which is rather unusual (if not unknown) among the world's languages. In fact, the English verb system as a whole is rather different from the verb systems of many of the world's languages. That may be a contributing factor for the issues many English learners of Esperanto or other languages have to face. Esperanto is simply not English with other words substituted. You have to learn other ways of expressing things. In Esperanto, as in many other languages, there is literally no such thing as "half an infinitive," which is one of the almost bizarre oddities of English.
nornen (Profil anzeigen) 25. April 2016 04:40:27
LordRatte:Afterthought: In Latin, prepositions are built into the verbs with conjugations yet it still has verbs. I'd imagine this is for poetic reasons and emphasis. So I wouldn't be surprised if Esperanto had a similar dynamic here.If you are referring to the fact that in Latin composite verbs (verba composita) are commonly of the form preposition+verb, then yes: In Esperanto this works exactly the same way:
iri - go (lat: ire)
eniri - enter (lat: inire, means also "begin" )
eliri - exit (lat: exire)
ŝalti - switch
enŝalti - switch on
elŝalti - switch off
You can also build applicative verbs like this (maybe with a minimal semantic change):
Mi parolas pri leono -> Mi priparolas leonon.
Mi vivis tra la milito -> Mi travivis la militon.
thyrolf (Profil anzeigen) 25. April 2016 08:39:18
nornen:Fakte la preciza difino por ŝalti (PIV, vortaro.net, 9a oficiala aldono) estas tiu:LordRatte:Afterthought: In Latin, prepositions are built into the verbs with conjugations yet it still has verbs. I'd imagine this is for poetic reasons and emphasis. So I wouldn't be surprised if Esperanto had a similar dynamic here.If you are referring to the fact that in Latin composite verbs (verba composita) are commonly of the form preposition+verb, then yes: In Esperanto this works exactly the same way:
iri - go (lat: ire)
eniri - enter (lat: inire, means also "begin" )
eliri - exit (lat: exire)
ŝalti - switch
enŝalti - switch on
elŝalti - switch off
You can also build applicative verbs like this (maybe with a minimal semantic change):
Mi parolas pri leono -> Mi priparolas leonon.
Mi vivis tra la milito -> Mi travivis la militon.
"ŝalti (tr) ⏚ Fermi elektran cirkviton per speciala aparato, tiel ke kurento komencas traflui: ŝalti la lumon, la ekbrulon de motoro; ŝalti lampon, radioricevilon. ☞ komuti, konekti."
Do:
switch on = ŝalti
switch off = malŝalti
![ridulo.gif](/images/smileys/ridulo.gif)
richardhall (Profil anzeigen) 25. April 2016 09:24:45
thyrolf:There are examples in the Tekstaro of both ŝalti and enŝalti for 'switch on', malŝalti and elŝalti for switch off. I'm not sure why you'd choose one over the other -- I rather like the simplicity of ŝalti/malŝalti.
switch on = ŝalti
switch off = malŝalti
erinja (Profil anzeigen) 25. April 2016 16:21:57
thyrolf:Fakte la preciza difino por ŝalti (PIV, vortaro.net, 9a oficiala aldono) estas tiu:Don't forget to translate your post into English. This is the English forum, so you can write in Esperanto but it should be accompanied by an English translation.
"ŝalti (tr) ⏚ Fermi elektran cirkviton per speciala aparato, tiel ke kurento komencas traflui: ŝalti la lumon, la ekbrulon de motoro; ŝalti lampon, radioricevilon. ☞ komuti, konekti."
Do:
switch on = ŝalti
switch off = malŝalti
Altebrilas (Profil anzeigen) 25. April 2016 17:53:15
bartlett22183:In french you can say "je suis en train d'aller" that means the same. (No relation with railways!)
I recall long years ago in elementary French class here in the USA, there were some students who were baffled, almost uncomprehending, that "Je suis allant" was not perfectly good French for English "I am going." They had just not internalized that French is not merely English with other words substituted.
thyrolf (Profil anzeigen) 25. April 2016 17:54:54
erinja:I beg Your pardon, I didn't notice that I didn't use English.thyrolf:Fakte la preciza difino por ŝalti (PIV, vortaro.net, 9a oficiala aldono) estas tiu:Don't forget to translate your post into English. This is the English forum, so you can write in Esperanto but it should be accompanied by an English translation.
"ŝalti (tr) ⏚ Fermi elektran cirkviton per speciala aparato, tiel ke kurento komencas traflui: ŝalti la lumon, la ekbrulon de motoro; ŝalti lampon, radioricevilon. ☞ komuti, konekti."
Do:
switch on = ŝalti
switch off = malŝalti
Translation: In fact the precise definition of "ŝalti" (PIV=Plena (Ilustritva Vortaro=vortaro.net, 9th official amendment to the "Fundamento de Esperanto" done by the Esperanto-Adacemy):
"Ŝalti(tr) = close an electric circuit with a special device, so that electricity can flow through it: switch on the light ... " (I hope my Enlish is correct)
bartlett22183 (Profil anzeigen) 25. April 2016 18:44:57
Altebrilas:Yes, but is "je suis en train d'aller" the same customary use in French that "I am going" is in English? In English, the so-called "progressive" tense has taken over many of the uses of the simple present in other languages. My point is that languages have different uses, including Esperanto (the focus here), and you cannot just go word for word substitutions and expect to have proper and appropriate utterances.bartlett22183:In french you can say "je suis en train d'aller" that means the same. (No relation with railways!)
I recall long years ago in elementary French class here in the USA, there were some students who were baffled, almost uncomprehending, that "Je suis allant" was not perfectly good French for English "I am going." They had just not internalized that French is not merely English with other words substituted.
mkj1887 (Profil anzeigen) 25. April 2016 19:32:18
In support of what you are saying, the awakening to the fact that it is not the case that all languages are exactly the same except for a difference of words was one of the subplots of Thomas Hardy's novel Jude the Obscure.