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Half of an infinitive

LordRatte,2016年4月24日の

メッセージ: 12

言語: English

LordRatte (プロフィールを表示) 2016年4月24日 19:36:25

With Esperanto, infinitives have an implied "to" as part of the verb phrase. "To have" is just "havi" That is all neat and stuff but if I start using rhetoric, I might run into problems.

If I want to break off mid sentence, as with aposiopesis, in English, I can break off midway through the infinitive but in Esperanto, I can't.

It may seem like a trivial difference, but it can really influence a conversation. If I say, "I want to...", people will generally understand the completion of the sentence to be an action.

However, the equivalent in Esperanto would roughly be, "Mi volas..." i.e. "I want..." This could be completed with an object as well as a verb.

Long question summarised: is there a grammatical token that can be used as the "to" in infinitives?

Afterthought: In Latin, prepositions are built into the verbs with conjugations yet it still has verbs. I'd imagine this is for poetic reasons and emphasis. So I wouldn't be surprised if Esperanto had a similar dynamic here.

bartlett22183 (プロフィールを表示) 2016年4月24日 20:35:08

One issue that often comes up is that individuals suppose that in Language X they can do things just the same way as in their own native Language Y. Languages simply do not work this way, period.

I recall long years ago in elementary French class here in the USA, there were some students who were baffled, almost uncomprehending, that "Je suis allant" was not perfectly good French for English "I am going." They had just not internalized that French is not merely English with other words substituted.

It is no different with Esperanto, which simply is not English with other words substituted. It is not. Any language has its own structure and ways of doing things, and learners just have to grapple with that. So no, Esperanto just does not have a grammatical particle corresponding to English verb 'to', which is rather unusual (if not unknown) among the world's languages. In fact, the English verb system as a whole is rather different from the verb systems of many of the world's languages. That may be a contributing factor for the issues many English learners of Esperanto or other languages have to face. Esperanto is simply not English with other words substituted. You have to learn other ways of expressing things. In Esperanto, as in many other languages, there is literally no such thing as "half an infinitive," which is one of the almost bizarre oddities of English.

nornen (プロフィールを表示) 2016年4月25日 4:40:27

LordRatte:Afterthought: In Latin, prepositions are built into the verbs with conjugations yet it still has verbs. I'd imagine this is for poetic reasons and emphasis. So I wouldn't be surprised if Esperanto had a similar dynamic here.
If you are referring to the fact that in Latin composite verbs (verba composita) are commonly of the form preposition+verb, then yes: In Esperanto this works exactly the same way:

iri - go (lat: ire)
eniri - enter (lat: inire, means also "begin" )
eliri - exit (lat: exire)

ŝalti - switch
enŝalti - switch on
elŝalti - switch off

You can also build applicative verbs like this (maybe with a minimal semantic change):
Mi parolas pri leono -> Mi priparolas leonon.
Mi vivis tra la milito -> Mi travivis la militon.

thyrolf (プロフィールを表示) 2016年4月25日 8:39:18

nornen:
LordRatte:Afterthought: In Latin, prepositions are built into the verbs with conjugations yet it still has verbs. I'd imagine this is for poetic reasons and emphasis. So I wouldn't be surprised if Esperanto had a similar dynamic here.
If you are referring to the fact that in Latin composite verbs (verba composita) are commonly of the form preposition+verb, then yes: In Esperanto this works exactly the same way:

iri - go (lat: ire)
eniri - enter (lat: inire, means also "begin" )
eliri - exit (lat: exire)

ŝalti - switch
enŝalti - switch on
elŝalti - switch off

You can also build applicative verbs like this (maybe with a minimal semantic change):
Mi parolas pri leono -> Mi priparolas leonon.
Mi vivis tra la milito -> Mi travivis la militon.
Fakte la preciza difino por ŝalti (PIV, vortaro.net, 9a oficiala aldono) estas tiu:

"ŝalti (tr) ⏚ Fermi elektran cirkviton per speciala aparato, tiel ke kurento komencas traflui: ŝalti la lumon, la ekbrulon de motoro; ŝalti lampon, radioricevilon. ☞ komuti, konekti."

Do:
switch on = ŝalti
switch off = malŝalti

ridulo.gif

richardhall (プロフィールを表示) 2016年4月25日 9:24:45

thyrolf:
switch on = ŝalti
switch off = malŝalti

ridulo.gif
There are examples in the Tekstaro of both ŝalti and enŝalti for 'switch on', malŝalti and elŝalti for switch off. I'm not sure why you'd choose one over the other -- I rather like the simplicity of ŝalti/malŝalti.

erinja (プロフィールを表示) 2016年4月25日 16:21:57

thyrolf:Fakte la preciza difino por ŝalti (PIV, vortaro.net, 9a oficiala aldono) estas tiu:

"ŝalti (tr) ⏚ Fermi elektran cirkviton per speciala aparato, tiel ke kurento komencas traflui: ŝalti la lumon, la ekbrulon de motoro; ŝalti lampon, radioricevilon. ☞ komuti, konekti."

Do:
switch on = ŝalti
switch off = malŝalti

ridulo.gif
Don't forget to translate your post into English. This is the English forum, so you can write in Esperanto but it should be accompanied by an English translation.

Altebrilas (プロフィールを表示) 2016年4月25日 17:53:15

bartlett22183:

I recall long years ago in elementary French class here in the USA, there were some students who were baffled, almost uncomprehending, that "Je suis allant" was not perfectly good French for English "I am going." They had just not internalized that French is not merely English with other words substituted.
In french you can say "je suis en train d'aller" that means the same. (No relation with railways!)

thyrolf (プロフィールを表示) 2016年4月25日 17:54:54

erinja:
thyrolf:Fakte la preciza difino por ŝalti (PIV, vortaro.net, 9a oficiala aldono) estas tiu:

"ŝalti (tr) ⏚ Fermi elektran cirkviton per speciala aparato, tiel ke kurento komencas traflui: ŝalti la lumon, la ekbrulon de motoro; ŝalti lampon, radioricevilon. ☞ komuti, konekti."

Do:
switch on = ŝalti
switch off = malŝalti

ridulo.gif
Don't forget to translate your post into English. This is the English forum, so you can write in Esperanto but it should be accompanied by an English translation.
I beg Your pardon, I didn't notice that I didn't use English.

Translation: In fact the precise definition of "ŝalti" (PIV=Plena (Ilustritva Vortaro=vortaro.net, 9th official amendment to the "Fundamento de Esperanto" done by the Esperanto-Adacemy):
"Ŝalti(tr) = close an electric circuit with a special device, so that electricity can flow through it: switch on the light ... " (I hope my Enlish is correct)

bartlett22183 (プロフィールを表示) 2016年4月25日 18:44:57

Altebrilas:
bartlett22183:
I recall long years ago in elementary French class here in the USA, there were some students who were baffled, almost uncomprehending, that "Je suis allant" was not perfectly good French for English "I am going." They had just not internalized that French is not merely English with other words substituted.
In french you can say "je suis en train d'aller" that means the same. (No relation with railways!)
Yes, but is "je suis en train d'aller" the same customary use in French that "I am going" is in English? In English, the so-called "progressive" tense has taken over many of the uses of the simple present in other languages. My point is that languages have different uses, including Esperanto (the focus here), and you cannot just go word for word substitutions and expect to have proper and appropriate utterances.

mkj1887 (プロフィールを表示) 2016年4月25日 19:32:18

It is no different with Esperanto, which simply is not English with other words substituted.

In support of what you are saying, the awakening to the fact that it is not the case that all languages are exactly the same except for a difference of words was one of the subplots of Thomas Hardy's novel Jude the Obscure.

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