Meddelelser: 41
Sprog: English
Miland (Vise profilen) 19. maj 2016 14.50.27
Alkanadi:So Kellerman made a mistake. I didn't see that one coming...Neither did Kellerman, quite possibly. It would be a mistake from our present point of view. His is a very old textbook from the earliest days of the movement, when ci was still current. The other example you found was a quote from a conversation, and so might reflect a looser use of the language.
It is now safe to say: if it doesn't have a name ending -o, no matter what it is, use al to indicate movement towards it, not the accusative.
Alkanadi (Vise profilen) 19. maj 2016 15.10.44
Miland:Thanks. I will go with that. That makes it easy.Alkanadi:So Kellerman made a mistake. I didn't see that one coming...It is now safe to say: if it doesn't have a name ending -o, no matter what it is, use al to indicate movement towards it, not the accusative.
Just one small monkey wrench to throw into the machine:
erinja:A restaurant is a place.restoracion <--- A place according to Erinja.
ĝardenon <--- Not a place according to Miland.
This is why I ask these questions. Everyone thinks their own answer is self-evident. One person says, obviously a garden is a place. Another person will say the opposite. Then the one asking the question is seen as a trouble maker when they are innocently trying to iron out some inconsistencies. You can't win.
Miland (Vise profilen) 19. maj 2016 15.37.32
Alkanadi:ĝardenon <--- Not a place according to Miland.That is not accurate. I said that a garden does not count as a named place if it does not have a name (2016-05-19 8:59:04). Even then it wouldn't be eligible for the accusative if the name did not end in -o. Even in that case I would probably prefer to use al to indicate movement towards it, since using a name to refer to a location is not something we usually do except for dwelt areas like towns, or (just possibly) a very famous building or estate.
thyrolf (Vise profilen) 19. maj 2016 16.40.46
it's an example of accusativ! i try to translate (not sure i'm able to do it correctly): they locked at each other, deepening in their hearts, started to move, to turn, turn around, dance - danced into their happiness.
Vestitor (Vise profilen) 19. maj 2016 17.05.33
thyrolf:Ili sin ame rigardis, kore enprofundiĝis, komencis sin movi, turneti, turni, danci - dancadis feliĉen.English or English translations alongside Esperanto are required here.
lagtendisto (Vise profilen) 19. maj 2016 17.28.53
dbob:Thanks, dbob. I really missed that. Thanks for that hint. Short time I was wondering about combination of 'al tien'. But then I thought, okay Evildela, obviously he is KER C1 level speaker, so it could be some kind of emphasis to use 'al tien' ('al al' ). I assume that I confused it with Lidepla -bu- verb repetition particle and made it bias for Esperanto, too. In result, I didn't listen with full mental energy. I have to improve that. Lesson learntspreecamper:Example of 'al'-movement: 'Do ni povas iri al tien.'He didn't say "al tien". He said: "Do ni povas iri aŭ tien, aŭ tien."
"Al" by itself already shows movement and you don't use the accusative N after it.
If I say "mi iros al tien" that would mean "mi iros al al tie" ---> Rolvortetoj, kiuj mem montras direkton.
Furthermore, in my opinion that 'aux' also sounds little bit like English 'ehm'.
Alkanadi (Vise profilen) 22. maj 2016 07.02.58
Li, doktoro, tiel vestite venis restoracion...
erinja:A restaurant is a place.Li iris ĝardenon.
Miland:Alkanadi:Is this a mistake?Yes...
Li iris ĝardenon.
Miland (Vise profilen) 25. maj 2016 08.52.31
Kirilo81 (Vise profilen) 25. maj 2016 09.22.11
If there is any language change going on with the accusative of direction, then it is the loss of the bare accusative in favor of the directional adverb: Mi iros urbon -> Mi iros urben (although they don't mean the same, originally).
I don't see why Mi iras ĝardenon should be wrong, a garden is a place, too (although not the most typical one and not a proper name, so the expression would be stylistically marked).
Alkanadi (Vise profilen) 25. maj 2016 09.50.39
Kirilo81:I don't see why Mi iras ĝardenon should be wrong...Other people will disagree with you.
The problem is this. If ĝardenon is a place then anything can be a place by extension. A garden is a place where you grow food. A table is a place where you eat.
How do we define a place?
Each side holds their own position as self-evident and obvious. Too bad nobody can explain this discrepancy. I must be the first one in history to discover it.