Al la enhavo
Respondi

Accusative of Direction

de Alkanadi, 2016-majo-18

Mesaĝoj: 41

Lingvo: English

thyrolf (Montri la profilon) 2016-majo-19 07:20:23

erinja:"Eniri" is transitive, for example (but "foriri" is intransitive" )
Certe vi ankaŭ ofte miras, kia multo eblas en Esperanto. Mi eĉ legis en iu libro transitivan "foriron", do: mi foriras la arbaron. (Simile al "mi forlasas la arbaron"). Laŭ kiu regulo tio estu malpermesenda?

Ahm, ok, English:

You certainly often are surprised, what a multitude is possible in Esperanto. In some book I read a transitive "foriri", e.v. "mi foriras la arbaron" (I go out of the wood). (Similar to "mi forlasas la arbaron". I leave the wood). What rule should forbide this?

Alkanadi (Montri la profilon) 2016-majo-19 07:47:17

thyrolf:
erinja:..."foriri" is intransitive...
In some book I read a transitive "foriri", e.v. "mi foriras la arbaron" (I go out of the wood).
I remember seeing something like that before also, but I don't remember where.

I don't know if Mi foriras la arbaron is correct but it seems logical since we can say Mi iras la arbaron (I think Arbaron is a place so no preposition is required).

I wasn't able to find anything from the tekstaro where foriri was followed by an accusative noun.

nornen (Montri la profilon) 2016-majo-19 08:16:52

Alkanadi:I wasn't able to find anything from the tekstaro where foriri was followed by an accusative noun.
Try again:

Zamenhof:Mi foriras la vojon de la tuta mondo; sed vi tenu vin forte kaj estu viro.

dbob (Montri la profilon) 2016-majo-19 08:54:38

spreecamper:Example of 'al'-movement: 'Do ni povas iri al tien.'
He didn't say "al tien". He said: "Do ni povas iri aŭ tien, aŭ tien."
"Al" by itself already shows movement and you don't use the accusative N after it.
If I say "mi iros al tien" that would mean "mi iros al al tie" ---> Rolvortetoj, kiuj mem montras direkton.

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2016-majo-19 08:59:04

Alkanadi:Does a garden (ĝardeno) count as a named place ending with o?
If it is not a named garden, No.

Alkanadi (Montri la profilon) 2016-majo-19 09:26:42

Miland:
Alkanadi:
Miland:
Alkanadi:Where do we draw the line between what is a place and what isn't?
You may use the accusative with a named place ending in -o.
Does a garden (ĝardeno) count as a named place ending with o?
If it is not a named garden, No.
I got this from the Kellerman text. Is this a mistake?
Li iris ĝardenon.

If the above is correct, what is the difference between a place and non-place?

erinja (Montri la profilon) 2016-majo-19 11:50:08

Alkanadi:
erinja:...you are missing the fact that "al" is being used as a prefix
Am I missing this fact?
Sorry, I totally forgot the fact that you like to support your arguments with examples that are either non sequiturs or things that price the opposite.

If you can't determine how a restaurant is a place but a table or a desk is not, then I am afraid you're either beyond help or one of these most persistent trolls we've ever had.

As my last blast before I excuse myself from this thread as well, I would suggest that if Google maps marks something as a location and can tell you how to get somewhere, it's a place. Enlightenment, tables, and uncle Fred are not on that list. However, it will show you many restaurants, cities, and buildings.

,..or you could save yourself some time and just always use a directional "al" rather than a accusative, and never worry again whether something is a place or not, because "al" is always correct, for people, cities, and tables.

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2016-majo-19 12:11:51

Alkanadi:I got this from the Kellerman text. Is this a mistake?
Li iris ĝardenon.
Yes. I would regard the Kellerman text as an example of a use destined to fall into oblivion. I doubt whether you'll find many things like that in the tekstaro.

Alkanadi (Montri la profilon) 2016-majo-19 13:56:58

erinja:I would suggest that if Google maps marks something as a location and can tell you how to get somewhere, it's a place.
Really. I am shocked by that statement because Kellerman (the text that you previously said was popular among Esperantists) uses this sentence to specifically illustrate the accusative of direction:
Li iris ĝardenon
...a table or a desk is not...
A table is a place where you eat. A desk is a place where you study. What is so weird about that?

You don't have to reply to this since it seems that you are getting exhausted.

Alkanadi (Montri la profilon) 2016-majo-19 14:04:16

Miland:
Alkanadi:I got this from the Kellerman text. Is this a mistake?
Li iris ĝardenon.
Yes. I would regard the Kellerman text as an example of a use destined to fall into oblivion. I doubt whether you'll find many things like that in the tekstaro.
Interesting. So Kellerman made a mistake. I didn't see that one coming.

I only found one similar example in the tekstaro:
Li, doktoro, tiel vestite venis restoracion...

So it literally has to be a named place? Suppose there is a park without a name, it wouldn't count as a place? I think there must be a bit of grey area.

Reen al la supro