Mesaĝoj: 40
Lingvo: English
Vestitor (Montri la profilon) 2016-majo-25 17:59:06
In short: no.
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2016-majo-25 18:04:33
If people don't like the way you speak the language they will just correct you constantly (if they think you're a beginner) or look at you mean and also correct you constantly (if you are not a beginner and it's clear you're making up your own special private version of Esperanto).
You can decide whether you want that for yourself or not. It has to do with whether you want people to pay attention to the substance of what you are saying, or to the grammatical form of the words. If you speak a weird Esperanto, people ignore the content of what you are saying and want instead to discuss with you why you are talking in that weird way.
You can put in kacxjo if you want but some people might write to you and say that this isn't correct. You can decide whether you feel like getting messages like that or not. There are no "language police" who are going to take you away.
Those endings are generally reserved for names, and one might argue that if a person's relationship is their "name", that you could use those endings for those relationships - much like most children use "Mom" as their mother's name, versus their mother's actual name. I would not recommend deviating too far from this norm. But if this cat's name is Cat, or in this case, Kitty, then I think Kacxjo would probably go over ok (capitalized, because it is a name!), but if you are referring to a generic unnamed cat as a kitty, then kateto would be a better word. You can decide how much pushback you feel like dealing with. It's your game!
Zvoc47 (Montri la profilon) 2016-majo-25 18:58:08
Anyways, I understand almost everything regarding this topic.
Kirilo81 (Montri la profilon) 2016-majo-25 20:19:12
Zvoc47:Like, is kacxjo then incorrect?As long as it is no proper name, it is against the Fundamento.
As I have once already argued about this topic, it is not desirable to use -ĉj-/-nj- with any noun: While there are not so many names for which Peĉjo could be the pet form, there are plenty of common nouns that could be the source for a *peĉjo (pedagogo? pedanto? pederasto? pediatro? pego? pekulo? ...).
Alkanadi (Montri la profilon) 2016-majo-26 14:07:49
erinja:You can decide how much pushback you feel like dealing with. It's your game!This is why we need some type of video canon. Right now, you can be punished (receive social sanctions) by the community for saying things correctly. Whereas you can also say things wrong and be totally accepted. Example, Ci (right, but not accepted) and Na (wrong, but is accepted).
Don't get hung up on the examples. They are just a few examples to illustrate the main point.
The media controls how we use English, not the school system. We need more Esperanto media to codify the language. Then there will be more agreement on how the language should be used.
Modern Standard Esperanto needs to be codified properly with media. Not just on paper.
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2016-majo-26 15:36:02
You are kidding, right? Because clearly this means that English needs some more YouTube videos to codify the language, because I have definitely heard people argue over correct and incorrect English forms, and this should disappear as soon as we have enough YouTube videos, right?
And your examples are terrible. "Na" is not accepted and yes, I have heard people argue over it. It's just that proponents of "na" are usually not so in your face and obnoxious as certain proponents of "ci".
You seem to assume that YouTube is influential in the Esperanto world. It isn't. There are a ton of YouTube videos in terrible Esperanto, so YouTube would be exactly the wrong way of going about trying to codify the language, because there's so much chaff (poor/beginner Esperanto) mixed in with the wheat.
Vestitor (Montri la profilon) 2016-majo-26 16:54:31
As far as I see it 'proper' Esperanto, or 'standard' Esperanto, or whatever people want to call it, is already completely codified and doesn't need a media master plan to confirm it. If there was no recognised standard no-one would be able to identify anomalies or what they suspect might be anomalies.
All spoken languages have room for some deviation - and the truth is that many people will not speak perfectly, with accurate grammar or word choices etc, all of the time. To expect that is foolish. All languages have regional or class or age-dependent inflections, but it rarely gets in the way of intelligibility..
Alkanadi (Montri la profilon) 2016-majo-29 07:16:16
erinja:Because clearly this means that English needs some more YouTube videos to codify the language...Natural languages are different. Abnormal English becomes normalized through media.
You seem to assume that YouTube is influential in the Esperanto world.Do I assume that? I was thinking about supply side economics. More video creates more demand.
There are a ton of YouTube videos in terrible Esperanto...Isn't it easy to tell who the beginners are? Wouldn't a larger involvement result in more corrections from users?
Alkanadi (Montri la profilon) 2016-majo-29 07:27:14
Vestitor:...because there is no longer just 'English' but 'Englishes'. You Tube has compounded this more than anything.Wasn't there always different Englishes?
Decentralization of a language results in variation. Youtube, and other media, offer a chance to centralize and normalize the usage.
Text isn't enough because our brains memorize audio patterns much better than patterns found in text.
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2016-majo-29 10:35:28
Alkanadi:Natural languages are different. Abnormal English becomes normalized through media.Abnormal English becomes normalized through use, and then it becomes normal language. I assure you that English was changing through use before such a thing as media ever existed.
I was thinking about supply side economics. More video creates more demand.I don't even care whether this is true or not, but more video also does not equal better video, in any case.
Isn't it easy to tell who the beginners are? Wouldn't a larger involvement result in more corrections from users?It's easy for an experienced speaker to tell who the beginners are. It's not easy for a beginner to tell, and experienced speakers have better things to do with their lives than watch beginner videos and correct all of their mistakes. Also, no one wants to go around correcting all the beginners, unless it is your friend and you are specifically asked to help. It is considered rude to constantly interrupt a beginner so that you can correct them, and it would be equally rude to post a long critique of someone's online video (along with what I also said, that this is really time-consuming and everyone has better things to do than this). And again, I see a ton of YouTube videos in bad English. No one writes a list of language errors in the comments. Why would you bother? And it would demoralize the person who made the video (or the blog, or whatever online content we are talking about), because that person is likely only trying to practice the language to improve their skills. There is no need to discourage them with a long list of criticisms.