Al la enhavo

Je

de Alkanadi, 2016-junio-09

Mesaĝoj: 31

Lingvo: English

Vestitor (Montri la profilon) 2016-junio-12 23:02:35

I've just realised that I've never yet used 'je'. Perhaps you only really need it if you plan on writing a novel.

Alkanadi (Montri la profilon) 2016-junio-13 08:00:11

Vestitor:I've just realised that I've never yet used 'je'. Perhaps you only really need it if you plan on writing a novel.
What about for time and dates?

Vestitor (Montri la profilon) 2016-junio-13 11:17:03

Alkanadi:
Vestitor:I've just realised that I've never yet used 'je'. Perhaps you only really need it if you plan on writing a novel.
What about for time and dates?
Yes, you're right that's true. I suppose I mean in normal speech (or rather writing) where 'je' acts a variable.

bryku (Montri la profilon) 2016-junio-13 12:09:10

Vestitor:I've just realised that I've never yet used 'je'. Perhaps you only really need it if you plan on writing a novel.
Simple examples:
Mia ĝardeno estas abunda je fruktoj.
Mi ne havas monon, tial mi devas aĉetadi ĉion je kredito.
Mi havas multajn akciojn je montranto.
Li venos akurate je la sesa horo.
Ne trinku alkoholon je 90 gradoj!
...
I can create such sentences on and on. "Je" is normal part of esperanto.

Vestitor (Montri la profilon) 2016-junio-13 12:34:17

bryku:
Vestitor:I've just realised that I've never yet used 'je'. Perhaps you only really need it if you plan on writing a novel.
Simple examples:
Mia ĝardeno estas abunda je fruktoj. (why would 'kun' not work here?)
Mi ne havas monon, tial mi devas aĉetadi ĉion je kredito. (why would that not employ the word 'uzi'?)
Mi havas multajn akciojn je montranto. (I don't know what that means)
Li venos akurate je la sesa horo. (That's a time statement, I already acknowledged that it's necessary for that).
Ne trinku alkoholon je 90 gradoj! (Why is that not 'ĉe'?)
...
I can create such sentences on and on. "Je" is normal part of esperanto.
I believe you can, but that doesn't mean there aren't other words that might be more suitable.

bryku (Montri la profilon) 2016-junio-13 16:31:11

Vestitor:
bryku:
Vestitor:I've just realised that I've never yet used 'je'. Perhaps you only really need it if you plan on writing a novel.
Simple examples:
Mia ĝardeno estas abunda je fruktoj. (why would 'kun' not work here?) [/b] because it would give no sense
Mi ne havas monon, tial mi devas aĉetadi ĉion je kredito. (why would that not employ the word 'uzi'?)
Mi havas multajn akciojn je montranto. (I don't know what that means)
Li venos akurate je la sesa horo. (That's a time statement, I already acknowledged that it's necessary for that).
Ne trinku alkoholon je 90 gradoj! (Why is that not 'ĉe'?) because "ĉe" usually refers to place or object.
...
I can create such sentences on and on. "Je" is normal part of esperanto.
Answering your questions:
Each esperanto word has definite meaning, this is not English:
'kun' means together, with. How would that refer to "abunda" and "fruktoj"? I can't even imagine this connection.
"uzi"? "aĉeti je kredito", "vendi je kredito" are common esperanto expressions for "buy on credit". And it means something else to "uzante krediton". You might say "aĉeti kredite".
"ĉe"? And what would that mean? It is the strength of alcohol, not its temperature!
"akcio je montranto" I dont't know the English equivalent, "bearer share"?
Other examples:
doni koncesion je io
esti honorata je io
esti je duono da kapo pli alta ol iu
esti je ies soldo
esti malforta je la brusto
veti kun iu je io
vojeto larĝa je du paŝoj

"I believe you can, but that doesn't mean there aren't other words that might be more suitable."

Yes, but when no other word is suitable enough, you use "je". And that was exactly, what I have written in the first place.

Vestitor (Montri la profilon) 2016-junio-13 16:51:35

According to that logic it seems every sentence could successfully (and correctly) use 'je'. I still don't believe that all these examples can only use 'je'. It's a very vague way of going about things. They can surely be expressed in other ways.

Prepositions are indeed different in different languages, I'm not trying to map it to English so please remove that thought. When you learn another language you learn the prepositions that correspond. Esperanto is also not German or Polish or Chinese either, but speakers of those languages will expect some sort of fixed prepositions with fixed meanings.

In these examples it only looks like 'je' is a crutch that releases the person using Esperanto from devising more accurate expressions.

Let's just put it down to my inexperience and lack of mastery.

Luib (Montri la profilon) 2016-junio-13 17:06:16

I have found some examples where only je is possible:
"Mi kredas je Dio." Not the same as "Mi kredas Dion" (=I believe what God says). Still you could say "Mi kredas ke ekzistas Dio."
"Je la oka de oktobro ni renkontos amikon." Since there is already an accusative, you can't replace the je by another accusative.
And there was another example I have used today but I don't remember...

lagtendisto (Montri la profilon) 2016-junio-13 18:45:16

bryku:I see that you are language expert and you know everything better.
I never claimed this and no I don't know everything better.

bryku:OK. Stay with your wisdom.
Neither I claim to be wisdom nor I will chafe my knees due to others proclaimed 'wisdom'. Same eye level matters, even in front of some 'heroic veterans', you know.

bryku (Montri la profilon) 2016-junio-13 19:23:56

Vestitor:According to that logic it seems every sentence could successfully (and correctly) use 'je'. I still don't believe that all these examples can only use 'je'. It's a very vague way of going about things. They can surely be expressed in other ways.
No, if there is something wrong with the logic, then it is on your side. I wrote very distinctively: if no other preposition suits well then you use "je". Otherwise it is very poor esperanto. Example:
"Mi kaptis lin je la kolo" - which preposition should one use here to express the right meaning? (mi kaptis lin per la kolo, as in English? It is absurd in esperanto: it would mean that he was caught using his neck as the tool) In such cases natural languages use an idiom (English uses "by", German uses "an"-on, Polish uses "za"-behind/for and so on). Esperanto has "je". Is it logic to you or is it not?

Vestitor:Prepositions are indeed different in different languages, I'm not trying to map it to English so please remove that thought. When you learn another language you learn the prepositions that correspond. Esperanto is also not German or Polish or Chinese either, but speakers of those languages will expect some sort of fixed prepositions with fixed meanings.
In English prepositions have many, many ambiguous and idiomatic meanings (just look at the phrasal verbs). I hope it is not the case with esperanto.

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