Mi ekkaptis lian kolon..? Perhaps. I'm not saying 'je' CAN'T be used, I'm saying it's not the only way. It seems to me it's just a free-floating variable whereas most other languages have properly mapped prepositions where you need them. I don't see how having a few fixed meanings for one preposition is any worse that a catch-all variable. You may find English prepositions 'ambiguous' but perhaps that's your failing as a foreign user of the language. I'm sure everyone feels that to some extant about all languages.

It's weird though, I do believe I wrote that I wasn't trying to map it directly to English, you must have missed that. Perhaps If I'd written it in Esperanto using 'je' somewhere in the sentence it might have sunk in?

Vestitor:Mi ekkaptis lian kolon..? Perhaps.

I think that means that you only captured his neck. The previous statement was that his whole body was capture.

It's literally: 'I seized his neck' (which, presumably, is still attached to a body and not floating about on its own!)

Vestitor:It's literally: 'I seized his neck' (which, presumably, is still attached to a body and not floating about on its own!)

What if you are playing Doom and there are body parts everywhere? Then you would need the Je preposition.

If a game like Doom would cause confusion due to body parts hanging around, then I suppose English is totally insufficient for use, as we would surely say in English "I seized his neck". The context would make it abundantly clear whether it was a random neck floating around on the ground, or a neck attached to someone's body.

Vestitor:It's literally: 'I seized his neck' (which, presumably, is still attached to a body and not floating about on its own!)

The meaning is not the same as "Mi kaptis lin je io" (what about: mi kaptis ŝin je mensogo). This poor "je" is still needed and it is very good that the esperantists have it. So please, let's finish this useless discussion. Esperanto is as it is, and none of us is capable of changing it. And take into account, that here come mostly beginners, sometimes with weird ideas. Experienced esperantists have other things to do (like using "je" with pleasure where it is really needed).

You're right about that at least, since one is literal and the other is figurative! Or are you now saying that 'catch by the neck' and 'catching someone doing something' are exactly the same and thus require the same preposition? Or perhaps that they use the same preposition - to further help blur the difference?

I don't doubt that you have more experience in Esperanto, or that you are more adept than me in employing 'je', but you have presented some rather dubious examples.

The rule of thumb on "je" is that while it has a few fixed meanings (like for expressions of time), we otherwise use it only when no other preposition seems suitable. It's pretty useful when you just aren't sure of which preposition might fit, so you can use "je" instead. It doesn't get a lot of use compared to some other prepositions but when you need it, you need it, and you appreciate it being around for use. Everyone uses "je", I would say that beginners might be inclined to overuse it a bit because they have a more difficult time choosing a correct preposition, but everyone uses it to some extent.

PMEG has good examples, if you haven't looked at that yet.

I'm honestly beginning to think this is likely my failing more than anything. I've been flummoxed by je on other occasions when it seemed to be adding nothing to the meaning of a sentence (admittedly expressions of time as well).

On the other hand I don't think it's quite cricket to be accused of transliterating English and wanting Esperanto to match it, I'm not doing that. All too often you hear people explain that certain constructions in Esperanto mimic French or East European (mainly Polish) constructions, which sort of scuppers the idea that Esperanto is entirely its own thing, rather than a slight mirroring of certain languages that were deeply embedded into Zamenhof's brain.

Esperanto isn't entirely its own thing, certain constructions are certainly borrowed from other languages. Anyone who says that no constructions or expressions are borrowed is mistaken. It's not to say that Esperanto has nothing of its own but many things are certainly borrowed. I am not aware of a language that was the donor for the idea of "je", it might be pretty close to being Esperanto's own thing.

The thing that always strikes me about "je" is that it tends to be used in instances when other languages use a preposition that seems arbitrary.

Why do we knock "on" a door? Knock "at" a door sounds like it makes more sense than "on" and "at" would also sound fine, but why would it be wrong to say "knock against a door"? The answer, of course, is "Just because". If I had to arbitrarily choose a preposition for this idea, "on" would not be near the top of my list. This is a really hard aspect of learning a lot of languages, you know you need a preposition for something, you aren't sure which one to use, and it's easy to choose the wrong one. You end up memorizing the correct preposition for an idea.

Esperanto is a lot easier. It is rare that there is a "correct" preposition. We choose normally based on logic, and while someone might make a choice that is not the most common choice, you can't call it wrong unless it actually doesn't make sense. And "je" comes in to save the day when you know you need a preposition but you just can't choose.

If you encounter a sentence with "je" and you just aren't sure why it's there, ask yourself if there whether there is another preposition that would fit better. If you can't think of a better one, then this is why "je" was there in the first place. Or ask yourself whether it would have been better with no preposition whatsoever, would that have made more sense?

Feel free to ask about any instance that you wonder about. If these examples that baffle you are found here in the lernu forums, don't exclude the possibility that the person who wrote the sentence didn't actually speak very good Esperanto, and used "je" when another preposition would have been more appropriate. You can ask in any case but if you found the example in literature or in an edited publication, there's a better chance that it was a legitimate use of "je" when not much else would have been suitable.