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Help with correlatives...

od Marcus_Aurelius, 2 sierpnia 2017

Wpisy: 12

Język: English

Marcus_Aurelius (Pokaż profil) 2 sierpnia 2017, 14:39:49

I find that the correlatives are one of the most challenging parts of Esperanto. Almost all, if not all websites I came across provided mere translations or extremely sketchy explanations. I would like to read a complete and detailed explanation of how are these words are used. I'm thirsty for the grammar behind them and especially the pairs kiu vs kio and tiu vs tio. All help is appreciated, but make it detailed, clear and supported by plenty of examples. Dankon multe!

sergejm (Pokaż profil) 2 sierpnia 2017, 16:45:37

Correlaves are in fact simple. Combine begining and ending. But it is not simple find translation to English of some correlatives.
'Kiu' is 'who' (without noun, = 'which one') or 'which' (before noun), 'kio' is 'what' (='which thing').
Simillary 'tiu' is 'that one' or 'that'; 'tio' is 'that thing'
So 'ki-' is 'which ...', 'ti-' is 'that ...', 'i-' is 'some ...', 'neni-' is 'none ...', 'ĉi-' is 'all ...'
'-u' is '-body' ('somebody', 'nobody' etc) or (before noun) simply 'which', 'that', 'some', 'none', 'all'
'-o' is '-thing' ('something', 'nothing' etc)
'-a': is like '-u' before noun, but 'kiu nomo?' answers 'Marko', 'kia nomo?' answers 'bela nomo'; 'tiu' is 'that', 'tia' is 'such'.
'-e' is place
'-om' is quantity
'-am' is time
etc.

EmilioVdf (Pokaż profil) 2 sierpnia 2017, 22:04:05

A good exemple from Teach yourself Esperanto for the difference between kio and kiu:
Kio estas la patro? La patro estas viro. What is the father? The father is a man.
Kiu estas la patro? Tiu estas la patro. Who is the father? That one is the father. (The other one is his brother).
Kio is also asking for things, objects which are unknown until named.
Kiu is used for people and things particularised by name (persons and things known by name.

EmilioVdf (Pokaż profil) 2 sierpnia 2017, 22:58:16

And more exemples :
Kia estas la patro? La patro estas bona. The father is good.
Kie estas la patro? La patro estas hejme. The father is at home.
Kial la patro laboras? Por la monoj. Why the father works? For the money.
Kiel la patro laboras? Li laboras rapide. How the father works? He works fast.
Kiam la patro laboras? La patro laboris hieraŭ. When the father works? He was working yesterday.
Kiom da patroj estas en la kunveno? Kvin patroj. How many fathers are in the meeting? 5 fathers.
Kies patro li estas? Li estas mia patro. Whose father is he? He is my father.
Maybe the translations are not good English, but I hope you can understand the meaning.
A good thing is to make short sentences with the correlatives. It's easier to learn and remember with your personal phrases.

sergejm (Pokaż profil) 3 sierpnia 2017, 00:36:13

'Kio estas la patro?' is an exception of the rule that the meaning of correlative consists from meanings of the beginning and the ending. This usage came from English 'What is the father?' and I can't praise this usage. You can't answer 'Ĉio estas patro' ('Everything is father'), the good answer is 'Ĉiu (el la viroj) estas (ies) patro' - 'Everybody (of the men) is (somebody's) father'.
English 'What is the father?' would better be translated 'Kia isto estas la patro? La patro estas forĝisto.' - 'What worker is the father? The father is smith.'

EmilioVdf (Pokaż profil) 3 sierpnia 2017, 20:07:26

sergejm:'Kio estas la patro?' is an exception of the rule that the meaning of correlative consists from meanings of the beginning and the ending. This usage came from English 'What is the father?' and I can't praise this usage. You can't answer 'Ĉio estas patro' ('Everything is father'), the good answer is 'Ĉiu (el la viroj) estas (ies) patro' - 'Everybody (of the men) is (somebody's) father'.
English 'What is the father?' would better be translated 'Kia isto estas la patro? La patro estas forĝisto.' - 'What worker is the father? The father is smith.'
Thank you for the explanation.
So, maybe a better exemple:
Kio estas tio? Tio estas libro. What is that? That is a book.

sergejm (Pokaż profil) 5 sierpnia 2017, 10:26:11

'Kio?' is also used if you don't know is it a thing or a person.
'Mi vidas ion malproksime. Kio estas tio? Tio estas viro.'
'I see something far away. What is it? It is a man.'

amigueo (Pokaż profil) 27 października 2017, 21:25:47

i was amazed about correlatives:

kiel marsxi? (sam(tiel))kiel via patro.
kies la ganto? kies la sxuo.
kial sunlevigxo? kial sunkusxigxo.
kie sanigi katon? kie hundon.
kiu kulpigis min? kiu legis leteron.
kia estas la domo? kia la kvartalo.

samkiu legis leteron? (kiu) vokis policon.
samkies ganto? sxuo kaj cxemizo.
samkie vi logxas? mia familio.
samkial vi malfruis? mia amiko.

of course, some more words could role as sam-

bartlett22183 (Pokaż profil) 28 października 2017, 18:14:43

The correlatives have been confusing to me also over the years. I have never quite mastered them. They are artificial, ad hoc constructs, and not everyone's mind works in such a schematic pattern. I myself (and speaking only for myself) find Ido's counterparts to be much more intelligible. (Of course, they are based on western European languages, especially Latin, which are more familiar to me.)

amigueo (Pokaż profil) 28 października 2017, 22:47:14

what else, who else, where else, why else, when else, what else for etc
alikio, alikiu, alikie, alikial, alikiam, por alikio ktp
plikio, plikiu, plikie, plikial, plikiam, por plikio ktp

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