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I am stuck in correlative hell

kelle poolt PrimeMinisterK, 5. aprill 2020

Postitused: 37

Keel: English

PrimeMinisterK (Näita profiili) 7. aprill 2020 4:23.38

All right, well this doesn't really make sense to me.

I am going to through Lesson 5 in the Kurso and there's a discussion on Iu and Neniu.

Some people came whom, I don't know. is translated as Venis iuj personoj, kiujn mi ne konas.

I guess kiuj takes the accusative -n because it's the object of the verb konas, but why doesn't personoj receive the -n since it's the focus of venis?

Furthermore, Who came yesterday? is translated as Kiu venis hieraŭ. Why does Kiu not in this case receive the -n?

This is maddening. Just when I start to think I'm making progress and starting to understand things, I get hit with something that makes me question everything I think I've learned.

LuigiFusi (Näita profiili) 7. aprill 2020 4:57.34

Hi, unfortunately I can't help you. I am at lesson one, unfortunately I have little time available

sergejm (Näita profiili) 7. aprill 2020 6:11.17

Venis is intransitive verb, it cannot have object.
iuj personoj are its subject.

PrimeMinisterK (Näita profiili) 7. aprill 2020 6:23.57

sergejm:Venis is intransitive verb, it cannot have object.
iuj personoj are its subject.
Maybe I'm not using the right terms. A lot of the technical language when it comes to grammar goes over my head.

I thought though that any time you have a verb other than esti, whatever the verb's focus is receives the -n.

I think the accusative is just as confusing as the correlatives, now that I consider it.

Urho (Näita profiili) 7. aprill 2020 7:01.34

Jen 100 bazaj verboj de Esperanto (ĉe la lernu!-forumo).

Urho (Näita profiili) 7. aprill 2020 7:28.23

Jen utila bildo de Tabelvortoj (korelativoj)

schnellfenster (Näita profiili) 7. aprill 2020 7:38.29

There are transitive and intransitive verbs. A transitive takes an object. For example, she eats an apple.. something else other than the eater is affected.. the apple. Again, in a sentence like I beat eggs.. the action of the verb directly affects the object, in other words something is beaten, the eggs.

Verbs like run, walk, come, fall are passive or reflexive in the sense that they only affect the subject and so are intransitive.

Re correlatives, it's easier to learn the handful of affixes and their functions rather than memorise the 45 individual words that their combos make. So if for example you remember that ki- prefixes a question; cxi-, a universal term; and if you memorise the suffixes, knowing that say -am signifies time or -om, quantity, then you can connect those modular elements to meet the needs of yr expression.

PrimeMinisterK (Näita profiili) 7. aprill 2020 8:32.27

Urho:Jen 100 bazaj verboj de Esperanto (ĉe la lernu!-forumo).
Urho:Jen utila bildo de Tabelvortoj (korelativoj)
Awesome, thanks!

By the way, what is your use of Jen here? My understanding is that it means "Look! or Behold!" Does it have a difference nuance here in your sentence?

PrimeMinisterK (Näita profiili) 7. aprill 2020 8:36.26

schnellfenster:There are transitive and intransitive verbs. A transitive takes an object. For example, she eats an apple.. something else other than the eater is affected.. the apple. Again, in a sentence like I beat eggs.. the action of the verb directly affects the object, in other words something is beaten, the eggs.

Verbs like run, walk, come, fall are passive or reflexive in the sense that they only affect the subject and so are intransitive.

Re correlatives, it's easier to learn the handful of affixes and their functions rather than memorise the 45 individual words that their combos make. So if for example you remember that ki- prefixes a question; cxi-, a universal term; and if you memorise the suffixes, knowing that say -am signifies time or -om, quantity, then you can connect those modular elements to meet the needs of yr expression.
So the subject (or whatever the proper word is) when an intransitive verb is in use does not receive the accusative -n?

I think I'm getting it, but can you provide a few more examples?

Metsis (Näita profiili) 7. aprill 2020 8:40.31

PrimeMinisterK:
It seems that at least a handful of the correlatives though not only have multiple meanings depending on the context, but many of them also have meanings that seem nearly identical to the meanings of other correlatives so that it can be hard to know which one to go with.
I guess, you're being put off by English. English is notorious for lacking mark-up or any marks that would reveal the role of a word. It mainly relies on word order and context. It has "how" (in which way) for kiel and "how much" for kiom, which might lead some to think that there are two Esperanto words for "how".

PrimeMinisterK:
It seems that Kiu can be either who or which?
Kio is the general asking correlative, when you don't know anything about the thing you're asking about. Using Sudanglo's examples
 
  • Kion vi volas? : What do you want?
You use kiu, when you have a set of things of which you're referring to one. Say you're in café to buy to a baked good. Then you can ask
 
  • Kiu estas la plej malmultekosta? : Which is the cheapest?
i.e. the set is all baked goods in that café. If no other context is given, you assume "humans".
 
  • Kiu vi estas? : Who are you?
PrimeMinisterK:
I thought though that any time you have a verb other than esti, whatever the verb's focus is receives the -n.
Sergejm kaj Schnellfenster pravas. The separation to transitive and intransitive ones is very important. English tend to cut corners and often uses same verb for different things. Compare for instance
 
  • He opens the door.
  • The door opens.
where the first "open" is a transitive verb, i.e. takes a direct object (the door), but the second "open" is a so called reflexive verb (one of the intransitive types), which denotes that the action affects the subject (the door) itself. In English these two verbs look the same, but for many other languages, incl. Esperanto, don't.
 
  • Li malfermas la pordon : He opens the door.
  • La pordo malfermiĝas : The door opens.

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