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As it should have been.

Lunombrulino :lta, 20. syyskuuta 2006

Viestejä: 10

Kieli: English

Lunombrulino (Näytä profiilli) 20. syyskuuta 2006 23.56.55

Hi, this is a question that, laǔ mia opinie, can only be discussed by English speaking Esperantists.

I am correspoding in esperanto with an askii-pal in Russia, and was trying to describe the Soceity for Creative Anachronisms thus, "The Middle Ages as they should have been."

How do say "should have been" in Esperanto? My best effort yielded, "La Mezepoko kiel ĝi estintus," but I'm certain there's a better way to say this.

Would anybody be kind enough to lend a hand with this?

RiotNrrd (Näytä profiilli) 21. syyskuuta 2006 1.59.08

I know that the Vortaro lists the meaning of "devi" as "ought to, have to, must, should". However, it appears to me, and I may in fact be quite wrong about this, that "devi" is generally used as "must" and only means "ought to, should" when in the conditional form "devus". However, you can't have it be both conditional AND past tense. But there is a passive past participle for "to be".

So, my translation, for which I make no solid claims concerning rightness, would be:

"La mezepoko kiel ĝi devus estita."

I await the further judgement of someone more experienced than myself.

paulogeyer (Näytä profiilli) 21. syyskuuta 2006 3.08.44

miaopinie:
"La mezepoko kiel gxi devus esti"

mi tradukas tiel, laux mia angla kaj esperanta sperto, sed mia denaska lingvo estas la portugala.

se vi sercxi "must" kaj "should" vortojn en la lernu vortaro, vi trovos "devi"

eble:
i must (mi devas)
i should (mi devus)

T0dd (Näytä profiilli) 21. syyskuuta 2006 3.39.53

paulogeyer:miaopinie:
"La mezepoko kiel gxi devus esti"
This would be, in English, "The Middle Ages as they should be."

To say "The Middle Ages as they should have been" you'd use "La mezepoko kiel gxi devintus esti." That's literally "The Middle Ages as they have should to be." You could, in theory, also use "La mezepoko kiel gxi devus esti estinta" which is more literally close to the English, but I don't think I've ever seen that construction used. To my knowledge, the most common way of expressing "should have" is to use "devintus" followed by the infinitive of the verb. Try googling "devintus" and you'll see some examples.

erinja (Näytä profiilli) 21. syyskuuta 2006 21.25.01

T0dd:
paulogeyer:miaopinie:
"La mezepoko kiel gxi devus esti"
This would be, in English, "The Middle Ages as they should be."

To say "The Middle Ages as they should have been" you'd use "La mezepoko kiel gxi devintus esti." That's literally "The Middle Ages as they have should to be." You could, in theory, also use "La mezepoko kiel gxi devus esti estinta" which is more literally close to the English, but I don't think I've ever seen that construction used. To my knowledge, the most common way of expressing "should have" is to use "devintus" followed by the infinitive of the verb. Try googling "devintus" and you'll see some examples.
I think that some people would use "devus", even so. I don't know how correct this would be.

Most people I know use "devintus". But I think that's not a form Zamenhof would have used. The most classical thing to do is not to put the -ant- -int- -ont- (etc) endings together with verb endings. There isn't anything grammatically wrong with it, but historically it just wasn't done.

Having said this, I personally use "devintus" since I don't see a problem with it. And the only people I know who don't use forms like "devintus" are the ones who seem to prefer to talk in the most classical possible way. So those people would always talk about Francujo rather than Francio, etc., and in this case, they would say (assuming I remember correctly) "estus devinta" rather than devintus. One example of someone who talks this way is Bertilo Wennergren. I think his wife Birke does too, although I'm not so sure about her; I know she uses "Francujo" but I'm not sure about her use or non-use of -intus.

T0dd (Näytä profiilli) 21. syyskuuta 2006 23.29.18

erinja:
Most people I know use "devintus". But I think that's not a form Zamenhof would have used. The most classical thing to do is not to put the -ant- -int- -ont- (etc) endings together with verb endings. There isn't anything grammatically wrong with it, but historically it just wasn't done.

Having said this, I personally use "devintus" since I don't see a problem with it. And the only people I know who don't use forms like "devintus" are the ones who seem to prefer to talk in the most classical possible way. So those people would always talk about Francujo rather than Francio, etc., and in this case, they would say (assuming I remember correctly) "estus devinta" rather than devintus.
Ouf! Yes, this would be the classical form; I don't know why I didn't think of it. I'm too wired into "devintus," I guess.

vaelen (Näytä profiilli) 26. syyskuuta 2006 20.17.05

En kiu reĝlando loĝas vi?

How did you translate "Creative"? I guess the literal translation would be "Krea" as in "Societo por Krea Anakronismo." But that doesn't seem quite right, since the word "Creative" in the name really means to be inventive or novel about the Anachronisms. Maybe "Kreema"? What do you think?

Lunombrulino (Näytä profiilli) 26. syyskuuta 2006 22.24.50

vaelen:En kiu reĝlando loĝas vi?

How did you translate "Creative"? I guess the literal translation would be "Krea" as in "Societo por Krea Anakronismo." But that doesn't seem quite right, since the word "Creative" in the name really means to be inventive or novel about the Anachronisms. Maybe "Kreema"? What do you think?
Mi loĝas en Reĝlando de La Uesto, en la Graflando de Klundara, and I translated Creative into Kreema.

En kiu reĝlando vi estas?

vaelen (Näytä profiilli) 27. syyskuuta 2006 22.57.38

Mi loĝas en Ansteorra(Bryn Gwlad). I haven't been active for a couple of years now, but I am going to be becoming more active soon as my life has settled down quite a bit recently.

wildblue (Näytä profiilli) 28. syyskuuta 2006 22.53.50

Saluton! Mi logxas en Aethelmearc, en la baronlando de Thescorre. sal.gif

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