I've lived in Alabama all my life, so what I'm about to say is based on life experience, and not Hollywood stereotypes or whatever.

While there are individuals who might say they want to re-ignite the Civil War, in reality that isn't going to happen. It's pretty much just the booze talking. If their little militias with their single-shot rifles ever went up against the U.S. Army (or more likely just a handful of ATF agents) for real, they would pee themselves.

I'm not accusing anyone in this thread of being a neo-Confederate or whatever; I'm just saying it isn't a serious movement. They do not represent a majority, or even a sizable percentage, even of white male Southerners, let alone the South as a whole. White Southerners have changed in the last 150 years -- perhaps not changed as quickly as the rest of the world, but changed nonetheless. Most of us are not as backward as we are portrayed in the movies and media.

What's funny though is the inconsistency of people who on the one hand claim to love their country, yet on the other hand are nostalgic about the Civil War. General Lee and Jefferson Davis were traitors, you know.

Cool down, pal, you are just breathing out through the wound. Obama is not such a radical as you might suppose, believe me: compared to Chávez, Castro, Morales, Correa, or Ortega, he’s conservative like hell. He will tray to advance moderate positive changes to refloat your economy and make your system fairer. If he doesn’t you´ll kick his ass out of the White House in four years. That’s the beauty of your democracy.

jawq81:...but the fact remains that illegal emmigrants are slowly killing us financially. That fact doesn't faze Liberals because it fits into their accepted agenda...

I'm a liberal, and it does effect me. Well, I actually vote based on policy, not party, but that is besides the point.

Yes, illegal immigrants are an issue, whether they're German, Canadian, or Mexican, it doesn't matter. The issue is that they use our services, but they do not pay taxes on the services that they use. IE. Roads, Police, Fire departments, and other emergency and public services (sometimes schools).

The only ways that I see to remedy the situation are either 1) Stop illegal immigration, or 2) Legalize all immigration. Option 1 is nearly impossible, and option 2 has potentially massive consequences in the short term.

But, not all Liberals are down with the idea of freeloading, just so you know. Just as not all Conservatives want to destroy evolution.

I apologize if I sound like I was attacking you, that is not my goal.

jawq81:You'll find many conservatives a bit down this morning. A large number of us are just wondering what has happened to us and to the country.

Basically what it boils down to is the coalition that has traditionally made up the Republican party is breaking down, at least partly as a result of Bush's misrule. It used to be fiscal conservatives in the Northeast (Rockefeller Republicans or Wall Street Republicans), social conservatives in the South (plus Utah and the prairie states), and libertarians in the mountain west together had compatible goals and these groups were the base of the Republican party in recent decades. Bush and his (until recently) Republican Congress have been highly anti-libertarian and even more highly irresponsible fiscally though, so those wings of the Republican party went over to the other side this time (at least in part), while the Democrats managed to keep their coalition unified.

And also there's the enthusiasm factor. Someone who supported McCain on the basis that he's the "lesser of two evils" may vote for him, but they likely aren't going to go knocking on doors or donating money or handing out flyers on his behalf. Obama's supporters on the other hand were pumped, and volunteered and donated in record-shattering numbers. Even here in Alabama, Obama had volunteers campaigning just outside the 30 foot line at the polls on Election Day, handing out sample ballots and whatnot, and McCain didn't (at least not at my polling place).

So basically the Republicans will need to get their act together and re-invent themselves somehow.

Oh, boy! I see that I started something that I ABSOLUTELY did not intend to start. Yes, Mendacapote, you're right. Bush has been a disaster, especially during the past two years. I'll be glad to see him go. I'm not saying that to backpedal. I really believe it and my comment was meant to be more philosophical than anything else.

And erinja, give me a break! I'm not your enemy. It was not my intention to offend you or anyone else. But don't you see what I meant when I said our country is deeply divided? We cannot even discuss current events without 'socking it to one another'. And I didn't even mention the DC metro area. I've been to DC three times in my life -- all three times primarily to visit the Smithsonian Institute. I also lived in the Norfolk/Virginia Beach area for ten years.

But I still believe that the atmosphere in the U. S. is very unhealthy. I have beliefs. You have beliefs. Should your beliefs take precedence over mine? Why are my beliefs wrong and yours aren't? Don't you see what I meant when I said that conditions aren't all that different from what they were in 1861? The North was industrial; the South was rural. Leaving slavery out of it, the South didn't want the lifestyle and the worldview of the North.

Do you remember the novel "Something of Value", by Robert Ruark. It was written in the 1950s and referred to Europeans trampling the beliefs of the African peoples. That is, that if you destroy a peoples religion and deeply held beliefs, then you'd better have something of value to replace it with. What are you prepared to replace my beliefs with after you trample them into the dust? High taxes, big government, globalism, the homosexual lifestyle, no religion, destruction of the family, exposing children to harm? Nope. Sorry.

The Christian religion doesn't harm you. It's been around for almost 2000 years. Why has it suddenly become so repugnant? I've never harmed a homosexual person but I most decidedly don't want his lifestyle crammed down my throat. Marriage and children are most definitely worthy of being protected. What's going on in the world? That is my point.

Let's stop this bickering. This is a forum for learning Esperanto.

jawq81:What are you prepared to replace my beliefs with after you trample them into the dust? High taxes, big government, globalism, the homosexual lifestyle, no religion, destruction of the family, exposing children to harm?

You say you don't mean to offend, but statements like that are highly loaded emotionally. The truth is, nobody's trying to trample anybody, despite what they might be saying on Fox News.

Also: George Bush and John McCain are all about big government, globalism (i.e. free trade and unfettered immigration), and exposing everyone to harm, children included, with their goal of the military conquest of the Middle East. Why do they get a free pass from so many "conservatives"?

I recall a quote from one of your country's most famous justices, Oliver Wendell Holmes: 'A constitution is made for people of fundamentally differing views'. Or put it another way, the motto on your great seal E Pluribus Unum ('Out of the many, one', if my non-Latinist understanding is correct). Obama alluded to this in his splendid victory speech.

The grace and wisdom of McCain in his speech conceding the election, emphasising the need to build bridges in order to get things done for everyone's benefit, impressed me as well; McCain seemed to be using his last greatest opportunity to speak in the public eye to exert as much of an influence for good as possible. Way to go!

Good luck to your country, and may the increased hope I began to feel for the world at 4 a.m. this morning be fully justified!

Let's please adhere to the terms of service of this site. Speaking of the "homosexual lifestyle" being "crammed down your throat" is hardly very welcoming, and this site aims to be welcoming of all people, regardless of sexual orientation, race, religion, national origin, etc.

Different people have different lifestyles. The Amish live a very conservative life, very different from mine. They live their life and I live mine. The simple fact that my religious rules permit me to drive past their houses in my car, does not mean that I am cramming my "pro-driving beliefs" down their throats. And they can drive past my house in their horse and buggy without cramming their beliefs down my throat. Being a liberal is all about choices. Their choice to live their way, and my choice to live mine, and the fact that we live in a country that gives us the freedom to choose to live their way, or to live my way.

I am quite offended by the many anti-liberal statements I have seen in some of these posts, because liberalism is the opposite of cramming things down people's throats. And I am a liberal, and I have no interest in cramming anything down anyone's throat. To the contrary; I prefer to ignore fundamentalist Christians and such.

As a contrast, some people interpret Christianity in a certain way, that they believe Christianity gives them permission to ram Christian beliefs down the throats of others. I am not saying that this is the majority of Christians, but some people interpret the religion in that way, and they try to make it so that US law reflects their religious beliefs. I'm not a Christian, I do not care about Christian beliefs any more than I care about Buddhist or Baha'i beliefs. I just don't like it when people take their Christian beliefs (or Islamic beliefs, or Whatever beliefs) and try to pass their beliefs into US law, to make their beliefs binding on all people, even ones who don't believe in those religions.

jawq81, you have a right to live your traditional conservative lifestyle, just as the Amish have the right to live theirs. But I wouldn't want people to pass a law saying I can't drive a car, just because the Amish don't believe in it. I'm not Amish, and not everyone is Amish, so why should their religious laws become the law of the land? I also wouldn't want people to pass a law saying that I can't have an abortion, just because their religion says that they can't. If they don't want an abortion, and if they think it's wrong, then I respect their right to think that, and I respect their right to do whatever they want to their bodies. It is not my body, so who am I to tell them what to do?

At the same time, I want the same rights for my body. I don't believe in their religion and their religion's laws shouldn't be binding on me. I don't find Christianity repugnant. I'm just not a Christian, so why should Christian laws apply to me? Just as no law should be made saying that no one can eat pork (just because Judaism and Islam say you can't). Because if you're a Christian, and not a Muslim or a Jew, then why not eat pork? Why should Islam and Judaism's prohibition of pork be forced on Christians? It shouldn't. And what makes it so that Christianity's views on abortion should be forced onto non-Christians? It shouldn't be.

Here, I'm going to play devil's advocate since I'm a little bored at the moment.

Please keep in mind that these are not my beliefs, I'm just really bored, and this way it should prevent the conversation from getting "heated".

Joe the Plumber:
Abortion can be viewed as murder, assuming a candidate is in office who considers a multi-cellular developing fetus or zygote as "human." Because the "building-blocks" of life have been placed together to start the formation, stopping the formation is a reversal of life, aka murder. On that note, since miscarriages are often related to the diet and stress of the mother, maybe the laws should be extended to charge miscarrying mothers with accidental manslaughter. And I know that cars kill more people than abortions, but the Amish law to ban them doesn't make sense due to the fact that vehicular manslaughter is often unintentional.

And besides, Gay marriage destroys the sanctity of marriage itself. I don't have any evidence to support that, nor do I have a definition of "the sanctity of marriage." But the book of Romans, Exodus, and Leviticus mention homosexuality as either an abomination or a dire sin. "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." - Lev 18:22. After all, it ain't called the "good" book for no reason.

Sorry I couldn't think of anything more clever for the gay marriage argument, I suppose I could make something up like "All gays are actually members of the Legion of Doom, and they plan on taking over, but they really really want a wedding first, as it will save them time once they're in power...."

I think that argument is healthy, but not when it reverts to name calling. I do not think anyone has broken the terms of service yet, nor do I expect to see it in the future of this thread. Assuming that we're at least moderately rational people, this can be avoided.

trojo:

jawq81:So basically the Republicans will need to get their act together and re-invent themselves somehow.

I haven't voted for a Republican since Gerald Ford and then only because he was from my home state of Michigan and an alumnus of the University of Michigan where I was a freshman when he was up for election in 1976. Anyway, Republicans were different in those days- the old-time "cloth coat" Republicans. In the time since, the party has styled itself as the "party of God" and implied that you just can't be a good Christian and support "family values" unless you vote Republican. It's grown tiresome and I think many Americans aren't buying it anymore.

Beginning with Ronald Reagan and his "Reaganomics" theories of "trickle down" there have been policies designed to concentrate the nation's wealth into fewer and richer hands. Reagan's assertion that "Government isn't the solution, government is the problem" led to changes in which a lot of common-sense regulations that offered protection against financial predators were removed. Over the years this has led to disasters such as the Savings and Loan Scandal (500 billion) the Enron meltdown, and the current crisis which sprung largely from deregulation of mortgage lending (700 billion).

I sincerely hope that those times are ending for good and I hope for a better and brighter future.

Gratulon, Prezidanto Obama!