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Retraction, translation Q

від Miland, 20 листопада 2008 р.

Повідомлення: 6

Мова: English

Miland (Переглянути профіль) 20 листопада 2008 р. 11:14:57

A year or two ago I was involved in a sufficiently long debate about the transitivity or otherwise of the verb plaĉi. I have now decided that, despite the existence of forms like plaĉita in the literature, and the French verb 'plaisir' which can apparently be transitive even with an indirect object, in Esperanto plaĉi is nevertheless intransitive - as one akademiano outside the forum put it to me, la franca estas la franca kaj Esperanto estas Esperanto.

Therefore, with apologies to anyone concerned, I now retract the position that I defended at the time. I am therefore prepared to accept that plaĉi is intransitive, and that in phrases like Ĝi plaĉas al mi, since transitivity in Esperanto requires that an object be direct, the verb remains intransitive.

Which raises the question of translating, 'He was pleased', where the exact person or other cause of the pleasure is not in focus. Given that plaĉi is intransitive, it cannot be Li estis plaĉita, nor Li plaĉiĝis, since intransitive verbs cannot take iĝ.

Possibilities that come to mind:
Plaĉis al li with only an unmentioned, implied agent
Li ĝojis or Li feliĉis (or perhaps Li ĝojetis or Li feliĉetis if something less strong is required)
Li sentis sin bone (maybe a bit too diffuse, suggesting no agent of pleasure at all)

Any more suggestions?

mnlg (Переглянути профіль) 20 листопада 2008 р. 12:08:24

Li kontentis. This is perhaps closer to "he was satisfied" but I think it can work for your example as well.

Miland (Переглянути профіль) 20 листопада 2008 р. 12:21:45

mnlg:Li kontentis..
Yes - though, as you indicate, the problem is that 'pleased' and 'contented' are not quite the same. To be pleased usually means being pleased by someone or something.

tommjames (Переглянути профіль) 20 листопада 2008 р. 15:18:44

Miland:
mnlg:Li kontentis..
Yes - though, as you indicate, the problem is that 'pleased' and 'contented' are not quite the same. To be pleased usually means being pleased by someone or something.
I think "li kontentis" call still work, as you could just add the specific someone or something that pleased him, with "pro".

If you're looking for a passive construct, I think it's probably not possible due to the intransitivity of "plaĉi". I think in practice something like "plaĉis al li ke.." or "li kontentiĝis de" would be more usual than the English way of doing it which is only possible due to the fact "please" can be transitive in English.

mnlg (Переглянути профіль) 20 листопада 2008 р. 15:22:17

Another solution could be li plezuriĝis or li havis plezuron. Perhaps not for every occasion but I think it comes pretty close.

Miland (Переглянути профіль) 20 листопада 2008 р. 15:41:23

Thanks, these may be as good as we can get. I did toy with Io plaĉis al li (without specifying just what), but as you (tommjames) indicate, lacking a transitive equivalent of 'please', we can only do so much.

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