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Can participles be overlapped in expressing some meanings?

ya Rueya, 31 Januari 2009

Ujumbe: 33

Lugha: English

Rueya (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 31 Januari 2009 4:01:14 alasiri

My question is identical with the subject;
Can participles be overlapped in expressing some meanings?
For example, in case of future-perfect-in-past tense, to express the meaning in Esperanto, which of the following suffixes can I use, estontis -inta? -ontintis? estintis -onta? -intontis? if more than one are possible, are they expressing the same meaning?

Matthieu (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 31 Januari 2009 4:11:30 alasiri

Theoretically it it possible, but I've never seen such combinations (probably because they are too complicated; I don't know what estontis -inta expresses).

Rueya (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 31 Januari 2009 4:33:21 alasiri

Um, I thought, '-ont' means 'be about/going to' and '-int' means 'have (p.p.)', so these may be able to be mixed.
[John left for the front; by the time he should return, the field b]would have been burnt[/b] to stubble.]
How do I translate these sentences into Esperanto?

jchthys (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 31 Januari 2009 5:32:39 alasiri

I think that this sentence, with the verb tenses translated literally, would be:
Johano ekveturis antaŭen. Kiam li estis revenonta, la agro estis brulonta en stoplon.
Esperanto, however, generally eschews the use of the helping verb esti. So it might be better to say:
Johano ekveturis antaŭen. Kiam li revenos, la agro brulos en stoplon.

Miland (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 31 Januari 2009 8:02:15 alasiri

Rueya:John left for the front; by the time he should return, the field would have been burnt to stubble.
How do I translate these sentences into Esperanto?
Here's one suggestion:
Johano foriris al la fronto; kiam oni atendis lin reveni, la kampo estos bruligita al stoploj.

tommjames (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 31 Januari 2009 8:09:54 alasiri

jchthys:I think that this sentence, with the verb tenses translated literally, would be:
Johano ekveturis antaŭen. Kiam li estis revenonta, la agro estis brulonta en stoplon.
Esperanto, however, generally eschews the use of the helping verb esti. So it might be better to say:
Johano ekveturis antaŭen. Kiam li revenos, la agro brulos en stoplon.
A couple of points. 'Bruli' in esperanto is intransitive, so in order to express the idea "to burn", as in make something burn, you need to use the "ig" suffix. Also, the "ont" future participle isn't really needed since the conditional, being time independent, can point to the future just as well.

So I'd go with the following:

[John left for the front; by the time he should return, the field would have been burnt to stubble.]

John ekiris al la fronto. Kiam li revenus, la kampo jam bruligitus al stoplo.

"bruligitus" (or estus bruligita) basically means "would have been burnt".

jchthys (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 31 Januari 2009 9:18:25 alasiri

(I used the intransitive active, bruli, rather than the passive transitive.)

I think that the meaning of the sentence is pretty much the same as:
John is leaving for the front. When he comes back, the field will have been burnt to stubble.
only that the original sentence expressed the second thought in the past. Therefore, I think that a good functional translation would be:
Johano ekiris al la fronto. Kiam li revenos, oni bruligintos la agron al stoplo.

The sentence is not expressing any kind of hypothetical condition as would warrant the -us form; should and would are the past forms of shall and will, respectively.

And of course we don't know whether it's agro or kampo from the context.

erinja (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 1 Februari 2009 1:02:21 asubuhi

Forms like "bruligintos" are occasionally used in modern Esperanto but they aren't so traditional. The more traditional way of speaking would be to say "...oni estos bruliginta la agron..."

Rogir (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 1 Februari 2009 2:24:16 asubuhi

Actually, you don't need the -ig at all precisely because burn is used intransitively here. Also, I'm not sure if using an idiomatic expression is understood well in other languages, so here's what I suggest:

Johano ekveturis antaŭen. Kiam li revenos, la agro estos tute brulita.

Polaris (Wasifu wa mtumiaji) 1 Februari 2009 6:33:39 asubuhi

Rogir:Actually, you don't need the -ig at all precisely because burn is used intransitively here. Also, I'm not sure if using an idiomatic expression is understood well in other languages, so here's what I suggest:

Johano ekveturis antaŭen. Kiam li revenos, la agro estos tute brulita.
Rogir, your Esperanto is better than mine, so feel free to disagree with me, but I believe you are mistaken here. The expression was "the field would have been burnt" not "the field would have burned". There is an implied agent here---therefore, it the verb is not intransitive.

I think that the confusion here is due to convoluted English--making it a challenge to translate it to Esperanto. One cannot translate that which doesn't make sense in the original. "By the time he should return" doesn't fit with "the field would have been burnt to stubble" If what was intended were "by the time he WAS TO HAVE returned", or "by the time was expected to have returned"...something like that, then the "would have been burnt..." part would fit. Another possibility is to leave the "by the time he should return" but change the last part to "the field WILL HAVE been burnt to stubble". One way or the other, something has to be changed in order for the sentence to flow time-wise in English. Once we know what is intended in English, the Esperanto will be much easier to render.

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