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Artifikisto in English

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Ubutumwa 61

ururimi: English

henma (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 26 Ntwarante 2009 12:43:12

ceigered:
henma:Anglo-saxon rooted English is safe, don't worry, millions use it on a daily basis lango.gif.
lango.gif I know, just all the "big words" are confusing - it would be easier for me to understand if it was 'to the man", but at least I think I get some more Latin grammar, I'm guessing hominus is man and hominem is the dative case of it? ridego.gif
Almost, almost lango.gif rideto.gif.

The nominative is homo (remember the esperanto word, or "homo sapiens"). Hominem is the accusative (like in esperanto, you can use accusative to show direction, but in esperanto you don't say al homon malgajo.gif)

Nom: homo
Gen: hominis
Acc: hominem
Dat: homini
Abl: homine

okulumo.gif okulumo.gif

Amike,

Daniel.

erinja (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 26 Ntwarante 2009 19:53:52

In Latin, prepositions are usually followed by the accusative case (unlike in Esperanto). A few prepositions are followed by the ablative case. In historical Latin, I'm talking very old, pre-Roman, a few prepositions were used with the dative case but those forms fell out of use very early in the history of the language.

darkweasel (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 27 Ntwarante 2009 17:11:30

... and indeed the dative and ablative case are often the same.

(BTW, at least that's not as bad as in German, where even genitive objects exist, though they're now frequently erroneously replaced by the dative!)

Rogir (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 29 Ntwarante 2009 00:05:23

Will it not at some point cease to be erroneous because many people don't realise it's wrong anymore?

ceigered (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 29 Ntwarante 2009 06:03:05

Cheers Henma, Erinja, and Darkweasel for that.

Now I get what it is with Latin prepositions and cases, I thought there was something wrong every time I tried reading it ridego.gif

So I'm guessing you would say

Homo = The/a human
Florae hominis = The man's ... flowers?
Illa hominem amat = She loves the man
Illa flores homini dat = She's giving flowers to the man
Ablative... Well I still don't know how I would use this, is it like the instrumental?

(And I'm guessing 'ad' and 'at' are cognates?)

darkweasel (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 29 Ntwarante 2009 09:36:36

Rogir:Will it not at some point cease to be erroneous because many people don't realise it's wrong anymore?
I'm not sure which prepositions ARE indeed correct, meanwhile, with the dative. However, especially in writing, the genitive is considered "better style".

jchthys (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 29 Ntwarante 2009 13:23:47

ceigered:
So I'm guessing you would say

Homo = The/a human
Florae hominis = The man's ... flowers?
Illa hominem amat = She loves the man
Illa flores homini dat = She's giving flowers to the man
Ablative... Well I still don't know how I would use this, is it like the instrumental?
There are a lot of uses of the ablative, usually with prepositions. There is a special participial construction: Floribus datis illa hominem reliquit.
Literally this means The flowers having been given, that woman left the man, i.e. After giving the flowers she left the man.

ceigered:(And I'm guessing 'ad' and 'at' are cognates?)
Yes, they are.

erinja (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 29 Ntwarante 2009 16:03:08

Ceigered, note that although 'illa' does mean 'she', Latin seldom uses pronouns as Esperanto and English do. Illa (and its masculine and neuter siblings, ille and illud) are actually demonstrative pronouns. The ille/illa/illud pronouns mean something like "that [one]" - I'd compare them to the use of "tiu" in Esperanto.

For your sample sentences, in most cases you'd simply say "Hominem amat" and through context, we'd know that we were talking about "she".

The pronouns is/ea/id are the ones that you would use if you really wanted to use third person personal pronouns (he/she/it) But Latin still does not use them as English does, and pronouns are normally left out.

Homo means man, but in a much more general sense, much more like "person" or "human being". The best translation for "man" in the sense of "a male person" is "vir". So "She loves the human" would indeed be "Hominem amat" or "Ea hominem amat", but "She loves the man" would be better translated as "Virum amat" or "Ea virum amat" (rare)

To expand a little on what jchthys has said about the ablative case, it can be an instrumental, but it's so much more. It marks the circumstances of an action - place, time, instrument, manner, agent, etc. You can read all you ever wanted to know (and more) about the ablative case in Latin and other languages, at its Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ablative

darkweasel (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 29 Ntwarante 2009 16:47:33

I'm btw finding it very interesting how a question what "artifikisto" means can evolve into a discussion about Latin grammar!

ceigered (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 30 Ntwarante 2009 10:49:53

erinja:Ceigered, note that although 'illa' does mean 'she', Latin seldom uses pronouns as Esperanto and English do. Illa (and its masculine and neuter siblings, ille and illud) are actually demonstrative pronouns. The ille/illa/illud pronouns mean something like "that [one]" - I'd compare them to the use of "tiu" in Esperanto.

For your sample sentences, in most cases you'd simply say "Hominem amat" and through context, we'd know that we were talking about "she".
Ah I was well aware of this, I just was trying to find a way to make it clear what my meaning was (I was originally going to leave it without the "pseudo pronoun" I put in, but I figured that if my translation was "she loves the man" I'd put in "illa" just to show I wasn't assuming that '-at' was a Female only ending... Looks like that backfired though ridulo.gif

Cheers for the wiki link though, that was quite helpful and I think I understand it a bit more (its use as a case seems to vary language-to-language).

And @ darkweasel: I agree, one reason I love these forums! lango.gif

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