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geamikoj vs amikoj in 'La puzlo Esperanto'

viết bởi 1Guy1, Ngày 05 tháng 3 năm 2009

Tin nhắn: 10

Nội dung: English

1Guy1 (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 16:23:00 Ngày 05 tháng 3 năm 2009

Hi

I am working through 'La Puzlo Esperanto' and am confused - all help appreciated!

I was asked to put My friends of both genders and your parents are not friends. into Esperanto.

I put in Miaj geamikoj kaj viaj gepatroj ne estas geamikoj.

but this was marked wrong, stating that the last word should be amikoj. I am confused as the last word does seem to refer to the idea of friends of both genders.

thanks
Guy

darkweasel (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 16:30:53 Ngày 05 tháng 3 năm 2009

That depends on whether you use "amiko" in an epicene or masculine sense. This sentence seems to assume "friend" and "amiko" both as being masculine. (Though... what's "amikino" in English?)

Miland (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 17:09:02 Ngày 05 tháng 3 năm 2009

The prefix ge is only used when you wish to specify that both genders are being referred to. 'Friends' is a simple plural, so amikoj is sufficient.

We have, in PMEG:
Se vorto per si mem estas neŭtra, oni ne bezonas aldoni GE, krom se oni volas aparte emfazi, ke ambaŭ seksoj ĉeestas. Normale oni diru simple lernantoj, samideanoj, doktoroj kaj homoj.

I translate:
"If a word by itself is neutral, we need not add GE, unless we wish to specially emphasize that both genders are present. Normally we say simply 'learners', 'Esperantists', 'doctors' and 'people'."

russ (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 08:02:44 Ngày 06 tháng 3 năm 2009

Your proposed solution also seems valid to me. The use of ge- is not carved in stone and is often influenced by national language and culture, as well as what nuance you are trying to get across.

darkweasel (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 13:40:26 Ngày 06 tháng 3 năm 2009

When we're at the topic: Can "gepatroj" be used in the singular ("gepatro")?

Miland (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 14:03:53 Ngày 06 tháng 3 năm 2009

darkweasel:Can "gepatroj" be used in the singular ("gepatro")?
Normally not, because the basic meaning of ge assumes the presence of both genders at once, but it has been used in this way, for situations where someone wishes to emphasize that the gender is indeterminate. Like other unofficial innovations, time will reveal whether it becomes accepted through usage. You will find a discussion of the issue in PMEG.

darkweasel (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 18:45:57 Ngày 06 tháng 3 năm 2009

Hm. So, it isn't literally wrong? In that case, I think I'm just gonna use it when I need it okulumo.gif

BTW: German has a very similar problem. "Eltern" means parents, but a singular form doesn't exist. To form one, most frequently "Elternteil" (literally "parents part") is used. Maybe Esperanto could also use "gepatrojero"? No, not really, no one who doesn't speak German will understand this. okulumo.gif

Miland (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 19:06:12 Ngày 06 tháng 3 năm 2009

darkweasel:Hm. So, it isn't literally wrong? okulumo.gif
I would say that strictly it is wrong, in that ge is intended to mean both genders together, not one (undetermined) of them; see the entry "ge" in the Fundamenta Vortaro.
Nevertheless, if ge goes on being used in an unorthodox sense, in time it will be liable to become accepted.

russ (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 07:24:33 Ngày 07 tháng 3 năm 2009

Different experienced knowledgeable Esperantists will disagree about whether "gepatro" is valid or even useful/needed. It depends on various factors like:
1. one's interpretation of Esperanto's rules and the Fundamento
2. one's national language/cultural background (many languages don't have a sex-neutral word like English's "parent", so they simply don't feel the need for such a word as English speakers do)
3. one's thoughts about sexism in language.
etc.

nshepperd (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 11:40:25 Ngày 08 tháng 3 năm 2009

Speaking of "gepatro", could there be any other way to express the idea of "unu el gepatroj" through word-building or something? I thought of vivedukinto/vivedukisto, but anything I think of seems to be too long, and doesn't quite capture the idea of "gepatroj".

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