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Pronunciation help

viết bởi LilzGold, Ngày 15 tháng 3 năm 2009

Tin nhắn: 17

Nội dung: English

LilzGold (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 01:13:50 Ngày 15 tháng 3 năm 2009

I'm new as of today and already need help! (well, that's what us newbies are for lango.gif)
So here's three questions that are puzzling to me. Thanks if you're able to help me out by answering them; or even one.

1)I can't roll my r's. Is rolling r's vital with Esperanto?
2)What is the difference between s and c?
3)And also what is the differences beween the two h's? I can slightly pick it up, but not well enough to mimic it malgajo.gif

Filanator (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 01:32:58 Ngày 15 tháng 3 năm 2009

As far as I know:

1) It's not vital, but it's possible to learn how to and it sounds better (if you ask me) if you do. But remember that many famous Esperantists didn't roll their rs.
2) s is the same as english, c sounds like 'ts'.
3) I make ĥ by rolling my h's, I guess (it's hard to explain). Try that.

henma (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 02:05:58 Ngày 15 tháng 3 năm 2009

LilzGold:I'm new as of today and already need help! (well, that's what us newbies are for lango.gif)
Ok, you are right okulumo.gif

I'll try, as far as I can, as I don't speak English as my first language.

LilzGold:1)I can't roll my r's. Is rolling r's vital with Esperanto?
I think it's not that important, as long as you pronounce it an it's recognizable as an r.

It doesn't have to be too strong, only don't omit it (as in English final r) nor replace it with a flat (though, I think a flat can sound better than a too forced rolled r).
LilzGold:2)What is the difference between s and c?
Ok, c is like a ts.

Think first in the difference between sh and ch (sheet v/s cheat, for instance). Do you notice something like a t at the beginning of cheat? There's something similar in the sound of c.

Think also in the zz of pizza.

LilzGold:3)And also what is the differences beween the two h's? I can slightly pick it up, but not well enough to mimic it malgajo.gif
It's really difficult for English speakers malgajo.gif.

h is like English h.

ĥ is like Spanish j or German ch (the strong one).

It's an aspirated sound, like h, but more in the back part of the mouth. Try to pronounce k or g, but instead, do the h sound, without moving the tongue from the k/g position.

I know, the explanation is not simple, but I hope it helps.

Amike,

Daniel.

69UM24OSU12 (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 04:34:47 Ngày 15 tháng 3 năm 2009

LilzGold:
1)I can't roll my r's. Is rolling r's vital with Esperanto?malgajo.gif
One piece of advice that really helped me with the rolling r: It becomes really difficult if you try to pronounce the r and make the trill at the same time. Focus only on the trill and NOT on pronouncing the r-sound. The trill by nature contains the r-sound.

Miland (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 10:14:54 Ngày 15 tháng 3 năm 2009

LilzGold:1)I can't roll my r's. Is rolling r's vital with Esperanto?
2)What is the difference between s and c?
3)And also what is the differences beween the two h's? I can slightly pick it up, but not well enough to mimic it malgajo.gif
1) Try saying 'r' the way Scottish people do.
2) Daniel's pizza is a very good example of how the Esperanto c ('tso') is pronounced.
3) 'ĥ' is like the 'ch' in the Scottish 'loch' or the German 'reich'.

ceigered (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 11:55:58 Ngày 15 tháng 3 năm 2009

LilzGold:1)I can't roll my r's. Is rolling r's vital with Esperanto?
2)What is the difference between s and c?
3)And also what is the differences beween the two h's? I can slightly pick it up, but not well enough to mimic it malgajo.gif
Hey LilzGold, here's what I think:
1) Rolling 'R's isn't too important, but it's like the standard at the moment so try and learn it. As long as you pronounce an 'R' in all positions you should be fine. If you are having problems rolling it after 't' or 'd' (or 's'/'l' etc) just leave a minute gap in between (so that it doesn't sound like an extra vowel, but so you are not cramming the consonants together - Japanese people do this well IMHO). But other people use guttural 'R's, tapping 'r's (like in Spanish/Japanese, very similar to a roll), and English Rs.

Also, in regards to what henma said, omitting 'r's is bad because it's hard to understand in fast speech or for those unfamiliar with the phenomenon. For example, if you were talking to a highland scotsman after hearing only NZ accents your entire life, you would have great trouble understanding them. However, that said, if you came from glasgow it wouldn't be as hard to understand them. Same thing applies in Esperanto with the 'r' omitting. So if I said "Tiu ĉi estas por mia art-serĉado" like an Australian (e.g. omitting the underlined Rs) to a NZlander, it would sound understandable in most cases, but to a Russian it would be like "Tiu ĉi estas po mia aatseaĉado" or something crazy like that.

Sorry, didn't meant to write an essay on that ploro.gif (but I seriously think the esperanto 'R' deserves some research etc, it would be quite interesting to see if "all the 'r's of the world" could be used in harmony).

2)S = s, C = ts. "scienco" = Stsientso. Don't be surprised if it feels long or like theres an unnatural pause between the 'S's.

3) Put the back of your tongue up to the back of the roof of your mouth, and breath through it, and there's your 'ĥ' sound. It sounds like a run-off from the hard 'k' in English in words like 'Kick'.

Ok hope that helps! lango.gif

erinja (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 16:18:13 Ngày 15 tháng 3 năm 2009

To me it is important to roll your R properly. Officially, it isn't necessary, and any R is fine. Yes, there have been famous Esperanto speakers, past and present, who did not roll their R's. It sounds very nice to say that any kind of R is ok, but in fact Zamenhof suggested Italian as a good model for good R pronunciation. To put it bluntly, the point of Esperanto is to speak and be understood. If you pronounce your R as you do in English, you risk not being understood, and to me that is a bad thing. So in my opinion, it is a good thing to learn to roll your R. It doesn't have to be a huge trill, a rrrrrrr like a motor. Just a little flip. The letter D can help you get the R right. Take the word "granda". There's a small difference in pronunciation between "granda" and "gdanda". Use that as a guide to help you get it right.

Regarding the letter ĥ - when you eat something that tastes terrible, do you say "blecch!"? How about "Yecch!"? Blecch would be written as "bleĥ" in Esperanto; it's a great model of how to pronounce ĥ. Even people who think that can't pronounce ĥ have likely said "blech!" at least one time in their lives.

Zafur (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 16:45:52 Ngày 15 tháng 3 năm 2009

Hm. I've read somewhere, to make an ĥ sound, make a hissing or shushing sound, and continue to do it as you open your mouth. It's not exactly the same, but it's close. You should be able to correct it from there.

Miland (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 17:56:25 Ngày 15 tháng 3 năm 2009

Here and here are a couple of good youtube videos, respectively on how to prounce the Scottish 'r' and 'ch', which are respectively equivalent to the Esperanto r and ĥ.

darkweasel (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 18:51:41 Ngày 15 tháng 3 năm 2009

Note that there are very few words that use ĥ, and for most "h" or "k" (or something else) can be used instead. For example, "teĥniko" and "tekniko" is the same word. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%A4

And yet, for me as a German speaker, "teĥniko" is much more natural than "tekniko" lango.gif. But on the other hand, there are other tongue-twisters for me, like eŭ or the difference between ŝ/ĵ, ĉ/ĝ, s/z - where I have to pay very close attention! Also, ĥ at the beginning of a word is unnatural even for me (though maybe not for speakers of other German dialects!)

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