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"I" in dative case

door skeptikulo, 29 mei 2009

Berichten: 7

Taal: English

skeptikulo (Profiel tonen) 29 mei 2009 05:56:24

Let's talk about the declension of the pronoun "I", in English.

Nominative
 I

Accusative
 Me

Dative
 Dative case is no longer a part of modern English usage. Use a proper preposition + the pronoun in accusative case. (or Dative declension = Accusative declension? This is the question)

I see a lot of people using me when I is not the object of the phrase, it would be in the dative case. For instance:
"Send me[/i] the e-mail."

Is that OK? Because being an esperantist, that phrase would sound to me like:
"Sendu min[/i] la retmesaĝo."

Instead of:
"Sendu al mi[/i] la retmesaĝon."

So, would be more correct write:
"Send to me[/i] the e-mail."???

Or am I totally wrong and me also works in dative case, and then the context will show how to understand that? I wish there was a table with all the prononuns in all declensions from A to Z.

Glensauce (Profiel tonen) 29 mei 2009 06:53:17

From what I have observed in use, and what I have read, the English accusative and dative pronouns have indeed merged. I read that many grammarians regard the terms "accusative" and "dative" as obsolete and now refer to both the accusative and dative cases as "objective".

ceigered (Profiel tonen) 29 mei 2009 10:26:38

I agree with Glensauce.
And for some reason I think this has something to do with French (e.g. Voulez vous ME dire ....?)
I'm not really able to think about this bow but I believe that you use 'me' if the indirect object comes before the accusative (e.g. Can you give ME the book), and you use 'to me' if it comes last (can you give the book to me).
And therefore:
Send it to me/send me it
HOWEVER this only would apply to verb-direct object-indirect object relations.

Additionally we'd never reverse the 'to' form and say "send to me it"

Hope this helps mate ridulo.gif

russ (Profiel tonen) 29 mei 2009 11:15:26

skeptikulo:I see a lot of people using me when I is not the object of the phrase, it would be in the dative case. For instance:
"Send me[/i] the e-mail."

Is that OK?
It's OK in English, if that's what you're asking.
Because being an esperantist, that phrase would sound to me like:
"Sendu min[/i] la retmesaĝo."
It's bogus to translate literally word by word between any 2 languages, with no attention paid to word order, case, inflection, meaning, etc.

E.g. "La picon manĝis vi" is perfectly fine Esperanto, but you shouldn't translate it into English as "The pizza ate you". ridulo.gif

Similarly, "Sendu min la retmesaĝo" is an incorrect translation of the original English sentence "Send me the email". (What is the subject of the Esperanto sentence? It appears to be "la retmesaĝo", and you are ordering the email to send you somewhere... i.e. "The email should send me" or some such. ridulo.gif
"Sendu al mi[/i] la retmesaĝon."
That is correct Esperanto for the original English sentence "Send me the email."
So, would be more correct write:
"Send to me[/i] the e-mail."???
Well, you're asking about English grammar, not about Esperanto now. ridulo.gif

The natural typical word order in English (using "to me") would be "Send the email to me." Putting "to me" before the direct object sounds awkward/unnatural at best, if it's even grammatically "correct" at all.

skeptikulo (Profiel tonen) 31 mei 2009 06:30:37

Thanks for all answers. So, in summary, I can understand that:

1. The indirect object (the dative) is always expressed with a prepositional phrase of to or for.

2. Unless the personal pronouns, in this case there are two possibilities:

2.1 Use them just after the verb in their accusative form (to mean a dative manner), without preposition.

2.2 Or use them after the object direct (the accusative) like rule number 1, with preposition.

Is that right?

russ (Profiel tonen) 31 mei 2009 09:03:58

skeptikulo:Thanks for all answers. So, in summary, I can understand that:

1. The indirect object (the dative) is always expressed with a prepositional phrase of to or for.

2. Unless the personal pronouns, in this case there are two possibilities:

2.1 Use them just after the verb in their accusative form (to mean a dative manner), without preposition.

2.2 Or use them after the object direct (the accusative) like rule number 1, with preposition.

Is that right?
Not quite, as you're making a special case out of pronouns when they are not in fact a special case: It is perfectly fine to say things like "I gave Tom the book" instead of "I game the book to Tom", and "I gave my oldest brother the book" instead of "I gave the book to my oldest brother."

And just to be clear: This is purely info about how English works, and has no particular relevance to how Esperanto works. ridulo.gif

darkweasel (Profiel tonen) 31 mei 2009 20:25:58

To sum up, you can use:
[subject] [verb] [dative object] [accusative object]
or:
[subject] [verb] [accusative object] to [dative object]

The first one is shorter, but the second one makes the sentence structure clearer.

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