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English expression “including”

از jchthys, 20 ژوئیهٔ 2009

پست‌ها: 11

زبان: English

jchthys (نمایش مشخصات) 20 ژوئیهٔ 2009،‏ 20:30:36

Take the following sentence: I have been in several states, including New Hampshire and New Jersey. What is a good way of saying the word “including” in Esperanto? How would you say it in other foreign languages as well?

darkweasel (نمایش مشخصات) 20 ژوئیهٔ 2009،‏ 20:45:30

Maybe "inkluzive de"?

Mi estis en pluraj ŝtatoj, inkluzive de Nov-Hampŝiro kaj Nov-Ĵerzejo.

jchthys (نمایش مشخصات) 20 ژوئیهٔ 2009،‏ 20:58:10

Thanks for the response. Actually, inklusive without the “de” seems to be what I was looking for. I’ll see what other people say, though.

Miland (نمایش مشخصات) 20 ژوئیهٔ 2009،‏ 22:06:27

Darkweasel's response is as good as anything, in my opinion, but if you want an alternative, one possibility may be Mi estis en pluraj ŝtatoj, kiuj enhavis Nov-Hampŝiron kaj Nov-Ĵerzejon.

mnlg (نمایش مشخصات) 20 ژوئیهٔ 2009،‏ 22:14:09

You might also consider a form like "inter ili" or "inter kiuj". Not a literal translation, but it should work in most occasions.

In Italian the original form would be translated by 'inclusi' (plural adjective, singular incluso). Sono stato in molti Stati, inclusi il New Hampshire e il New Jersey.

Miland:Mi estis en pluraj ŝtatoj, kiuj enhavis Nov-Hampŝiro kaj Nov-Ĵerzejo.
Even though the intended meaning is clear, I would suggest against this translation, because it would seem that you have been in many States which included NH and NJ (that is, the States you have been to had NH and NJ in their territories). At any rate, you should probably add accusative endings okulumo.gif

Miland (نمایش مشخصات) 20 ژوئیهٔ 2009،‏ 22:33:36

mnlg:.. it would seem that .. the States you have been to had NH and NJ in their territories.. At any rate, you should probably add accusative endings okulumo.gif
I don't think there's any danger of people thinking this, just as no-one is in danger of thinking that a group of European countries in a tour "include" the UK and Germany as part of their territory. But the point of the accusative with Esperantised names is well-taken. I've edited the original.

jchthys (نمایش مشخصات) 21 ژوئیهٔ 2009،‏ 0:08:16

Miland’s situation does not cover the range of meaning of including that I intended. Inter ili (I suppose) would work in many instances. I do like inklusive as a general fall-back when nothing else works.

Vilinilo (نمایش مشخصات) 21 ژوئیهٔ 2009،‏ 1:15:25

darkweasel:Maybe "inkluzive de"?

Mi estis en pluraj ŝtatoj, inkluzive de Nov-Hampŝiro kaj Nov-Ĵerzejo.
Is that de in inkluzive de really necessary?

Pastoro (نمایش مشخصات) 21 ژوئیهٔ 2009،‏ 1:23:49

Those are the examples for inkluzive on the Reta Vortaro:

1) mi forestos de lando ĝis ĵaŭdo inkluzive (enkalkulante ĵaŭdon)

2) ekzistas diversaj aŭdaj signoj inkluzive de la parolo (inter kiuj estas la parolo)

3) la prezoj estas kalkulataj inkluzive afrankon

4) kaj Jonatan deprenis la tunikon, kiu estis sur li, kaj donis ĝin al David, ankaŭ siajn militajn vestojn, inkluzive sian glavon

Then I guess the rigth sentence is:

Drakweasel:Mi estis en pluraj ŝtatoj, inkluzive de Nov-Hampŝiro kaj Nov-Ĵerzejo.

Vilinilo (نمایش مشخصات) 21 ژوئیهٔ 2009،‏ 1:43:28

Pastoro:Those are the examples for inkluzive on the Reta Vortaro:

(...)

2) ekzistas diversaj aŭdaj signoj inkluzive de la parolo (inter kiuj estas la parolo)

(...)

Then I guess the rigth sentence is:

Drakweasel:Mi estis en pluraj ŝtatoj, inkluzive de Nov-Hampŝiro kaj Nov-Ĵerzejo.
I don't think so. In phrase number 2, de is not related to inkluzive, but to la parolo, I'd translate it to English as “There are several audible signs, including (those) of speech.”

I think the right sentence should be without de.

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