Beiträge: 34
Sprache: English
Rogir (Profil anzeigen) 18. August 2009 18:30:18
Ironchef (Profil anzeigen) 18. August 2009 18:35:47
ceigered:Do you listen to Radio Verda? I find that Arono has a very clear, generally neutral accent when speaking Esperanto but when drops in an English word/name he speaks it in his own Canadian way and it sounds suddenly out of place. I think your accent would be clear enough as long as you're pronouncing the letters the correct way and making distinctions for example between "Bona" and "Bone" etc.
@ erinja: I understand there is a difference between having an accent and being unintelligible, but what bout having a confident, well pronounced english 'tr' versus a badly pronounced esperanto 'tr' than sounds more like 'tthl'? It's not so much a problem now that I've practiced, but I'm worried about sounding unintelligible either way.
ceigered (Profil anzeigen) 18. August 2009 18:44:42
Ironchef:I haven't listened to radio verda in a long time, but I think I will download an episode onto my iPod tonight to help me get to sleep, and I'll keep an eye out (or an ear out) for this Arono chap. My vowels are going well though (thanks to practicing a/e/schwa distinctions for french and Japanese) which is greatceigered:Do you listen to Radio Verda? I find that Arono has a very clear, generally neutral accent when speaking Esperanto but when drops in an English word/name he speaks it in his own Canadian way and it sounds suddenly out of place. I think your accent would be clear enough as long as you're pronouncing the letters the correct way and making distinctions for example between "Bona" and "Bone" etc.
@ erinja: I understand there is a difference between having an accent and being unintelligible, but what bout having a confident, well pronounced english 'tr' versus a badly pronounced esperanto 'tr' than sounds more like 'tthl'? It's not so much a problem now that I've practiced, but I'm worried about sounding unintelligible either way
.Might sound strange, but are there any recommended podcasts for pronunciation? I've heard Radio Verda is a tad fast, and I know some Australian podcasts are worse than me (kompreneble, there aren't many who have heard of Esperanto, and we Australians have dodgy language teaching in primary school and probably don't realise that there's a way to pronounce things outside Australian English
Well I didn't at least until year 10). Ironchef (Profil anzeigen) 18. August 2009 18:59:19
ceigered:I do not find RV to be fast. What I like about it, is the way it's recorded in a high quality format, studio quality, so you get the full range of clean sounds. Other podcasts are either re-distributions from AM/SW radio or recorded in low quality bitrates (sorry getting a bit sound-techy) so they sound tinny, "essey" and hard to understand.
Might sound strange, but are there any recommended podcasts for pronunciation? I've heard Radio Verda is a tad fast, and I know some Australian podcasts are worse than me (kompreneble, there aren't many who have heard of Esperanto, and we Australians have dodgy language teaching in primary school and probably don't realise that there's a way to pronounce things outside Australian English
There's another trick you can try. There's a Windows application for sound called Audacity. It's free to download. Basically it's for sound editing but you can load an MP3 in and play with the quality. What you can do is slow it down without altering the tone/pitch, so you can focus on the words being spoken.
Just an idea
russ (Profil anzeigen) 18. August 2009 22:46:06
ceigered:Like how 'drain' sounds like 'jrain' etc. Basically the 'affricative' sound that 't' followed by 'r' in English makes.Hmm? I cannot imagine saying the English word "drain" to sound like "jrain". Perhaps I've not talked with enough Australians...!?
Just to be clear, since trying to explain sounds with English orthography is dodgy at best, you mean something like "ĝrejn" in Esperanto orthography, right?
This would seem like a big obstacle to other people understanding you comfortably. "dr" should not sound like "ĝr", and "tr" should not sound like "ĉr". (The very concept boggles my mind!)
There are a couple of combinations that are often not said as the sum of their parts (e.g. "ng" getting pronounced combined into a velar nasal ŋ as in English "sing" instead of with a clearly distinct "n" and "g" as in "sin good") that are typically considered acceptable (even by Zamenhof), but I've can't recall hearing, nor anyone even proposing, much less approving, of "dr" becoming "ĝr" and "tr" becoming "ĉr".
tommjames (Profil anzeigen) 18. August 2009 23:03:46
russ:"dr" should not sound like "ĝr", and "tr" should not sound like "ĉr". (The very concept boggles my mind!)Everybody speaks like that around my neck of the woods. In London the subway system is often affectionately referred to as "the choob" (the Tube). "Ĝr" for "dr" happens a lot to, as in "don't ĝrop it down the ĝrain". As for myself, strictly correct pronunciation of "drop" and "drain" feels extremely wierd.
jchthys (Profil anzeigen) 18. August 2009 23:54:27
russ:Hmm? I cannot imagine saying the English word "drain" to sound like "jrain". Perhaps I've not talked with enough Australians...!?Here in America, such a pronunciation is nearly universal (though you do occasionally encouter exceptions).
About RV, all I can say is that I listen to it because of the quality of the recording. And I think Arono has a fantastic pronunciation—not only clear but mellifluous. But Karlina’s native language really shows through, especially on the letter L, and it bothers me a little.
erinja (Profil anzeigen) 19. August 2009 03:08:34
@ceireged, re: the confidently pronounced English-style tr in Esperanto - I would advise against it. Even if comes out as tl, I think that's better than an English tr. What many English speakers do not realize is that the English R is not even *noticeable* for many foreigners. I was shocked the first time I heard this. It was from a French person. He could not even hear the English R, when Esperanto was spoken with a strong English-speaking accent. To his ear, it was as if the R was not even there. It's because our R is really alien to a lot of European languages. Each of us has aspects of languages that we struggle with more than others. Not everyone can succeed in having a perfect accent, and some native languages/dialects make it more difficult than others. But in my opinion, from the standpoint of intelligibility to non-English speakers, it is easier to understand t-[urlht neutral vowel]-r than to understand a "confident" English-style tr in Esperanto. The important thing is to keep practicing, not to give up.
ceigered (Profil anzeigen) 19. August 2009 12:37:08
1. I re-listened to RV and realised RV is not fast, I must be confusing it with some Polish podcast
Karlina's accent is noticeable too to me (American, right?) but I like it, maybe because it's foreign to me still (and probably because I can understand her more than Arono).
2. I don't know how an English speaker can be comfortable not pronouncing 'train' and 'drain' like 'chrain' and 'jrain' - otherwise it sounds like 'tehrain' or 'twain'. Anyway, for some silly reason, it's never quite mentioned in most articles about English phonology which is IMHO irresponsible because it's definitely there, I think 'tr' in IPA for English should use the symbols for a retroflex/alveolar affricative followed by the alveolar approximate rather than straight 't' followed by 'r'.
3. cheers erinja for that. It seems a bit silly though that many then choose to use a guttural 'r' instead of the English one, because to me that seems just as bad
Either way, I shall persist and try and get this pronunciation to top notch. jchthys (Profil anzeigen) 19. August 2009 13:10:37
1. Karlina is Canadian (Vancouver), to be specific.
2. I actually have heard people pronounce the t and d distinctly before r. I find this abnormal and possibly incorrect.
3. I do believe that the guttural r is at least better than the English one. I have heard an Australian using it in the podcast Tuj!. (Though if I were you I’d work for the gold standard!)