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Disde - El

от ailebol, 22 августа 2009 г.

Сообщений: 9

Язык: English

ailebol (Показать профиль) 22 августа 2009 г., 16:46:53

One of my pen-pals uses disde as disde Belgio another el as el Usono. Can they be used interchangeably?

Rogir (Показать профиль) 22 августа 2009 г., 18:13:18

I have never heard disde, and I think the usual way of saying is 'Mi estas de Lando'.

Miland (Показать профиль) 22 августа 2009 г., 18:55:53

Like Rogir, I haven't used this preposition.
Disde is an uncommon variant of de. We can use disde thus: 'We cannot distinguish his sheep from ours'. Ni ne povas distingi liajn ŝafojn disde la niaj. However Butler's dictionary suggests that this be used sparingly and that it could be better put distingi inter A kaj B. PIV 2005 gives an example of disde being used after a passive participle where de is not intended: 'the child taken away from the mother', la infano forprenita disde la patrino. (i.e. taken away from, not by). This example is also given in PMEG (last para). Also PMEG (para after the first box) gives an example of disde being used in the sense of for de.

Pharoah (Показать профиль) 23 августа 2009 г., 6:29:11

Hmm, disde looks a lot like Spanish desde, which means "since". EG:
"Desde el incidento en la acensor, nadie quería estar demasiado cercano al Andres."
"Since the incident in the elevator, nobody wanted to be too close to Andres."

Just something to think about. Not sure if it's relevant or not.

ceigered (Показать профиль) 23 августа 2009 г., 8:39:15

"Mi estas de la lando ...." is the best kind of pattern. El is like saying they just came directly from there, e.g. talking at an airport - it could be used by someone who just had a holiday or stop-off in another country. At least that's how I see it.

I'd understand you if you said 'Mi estas el/Mi venas el/Mi estas de la lando...', regardless of whether it was good or bad esperanto, but if you said 'disde' I'd be trying to figure out what you're talking about.

tommjames (Показать профиль) 23 августа 2009 г., 10:53:28

Miland:However Butler's dictionary suggests that this be used sparingly
Did they give any rationalle for that, apart from using inter?

Miland (Показать профиль) 23 августа 2009 г., 13:34:51

tommjames:Did they give any rationalle for that, apart from using inter?
The entry only says, before giving examples:
"Disde (occasional variant of de) shd be used, if at all, only to avoid ambiguity."

However Kalocsay and Waringhien's Plena Analiza Gramatiko (remark following para 179) gives a list of verbs after whose passive participles disde might be appropriate to avoid confusion: preni, rabi, savi, aĉeti, apartigi and senigi, where it appears to me that the meaning of the preposition is 'from' rather than 'by'.

tommjames (Показать профиль) 23 августа 2009 г., 14:06:02

Miland:The entry only says, before giving examples: "Disde (occasional variant of de) shd be used, if at all, only to avoid ambiguity."
Cool. The reason I ask is I like to make use of disde myself for exactly that reason (avoiding ambiguity). I find it useful especially with the passive participles, as well as disambiguating the genetive case in general. There are quite a few results for disde in Tekstaro that disambiguate in a way that would be slightly difficult or unwieldy with other prepositions/adverbs such as inter, for, aparte etc.

erinja (Показать профиль) 23 августа 2009 г., 15:04:45

Going back to the original question, I would never use "disde" to describe coming from a certain country. De and el are the common choices, and both correct.

According to PMEG, "el" doesn't only have the sense of moving from one place to another; it can also show origin or source. So "Mi estas el Usono" means that you come from the US originally. It doesn't mean that you just came from there, physically. Although if you want to show that you just physically came from there, it is easy to add this with context and/or additional words ("Mi venis el Usono hieraux", "Mi venis el Germanio kaj eniris Francion", etc)

"de" can also show origin, so it isn't to say that "el" is the only correct choice. Only, that "de" and "el" are equally correct in the context of where you come from.

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