Wpisy: 21
Język: English
Momomomomo (Pokaż profil) 14 września 2009, 18:02:28
ceigered (Pokaż profil) 14 września 2009, 19:30:29
Momomomomo:On the subject of the actual message I understood all of it and was a little surprised I did. This is why EO has to stay a second language, if populations stated speaking it all the time, soon it would get shortened and lazied up like this (save us oh regulation authorities).Well, actually if everyone started speaking it all the time then Esperanto would have done far more than achieve it's original goal. And lazied up speech isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's the direction English has been heading in for a good while, and languages like Chinese have been doing this for ages.
It could even be argued that this kind of highly analyitical grammar is the way to go for human languages, as it complies with brevity, simplicity and regularity.
On the other hand, if EO were to remain a 2nd language only, then the challenge is to make sure it is taught properly otherwise it could be half-heartedly simplified by learners, and if that happens the worse case scenario would probably be the language splitting into various loosely related colloquial languages.
Either way it doesn't really matter to me as long as I can understand someone across the world as easily as before
.Rogir:Actually, I consider ĉiuj tiuj ĉi wrong or at least a too literal translation.Heres the problem though: if I say 'cxiuj cxi' or something like that, I'm basically saying 'all' - the problem with this is that it is far too ambiguous if I'm saying 'all these people' because 'cxiuj cxi homoj' simply translates to 'all people here', where as I'm referring to a specific group of people, 'these people', and I am referring to 'all' of 'these people' in a precise manner.
....
Because you are using two correlatives that contradict each other. The 'this' in 'all this' is already covered by ĉi.
It's akin to taking out the 'all' in 'all people are good inside', or being a party and saying 'everybody here are good dancers' instead of saying 'all these people here are good dancers' (for example if I was comparing two groups).
tommjames (Pokaż profil) 14 września 2009, 20:03:05
ceigered:Heres the problem though: if I say 'cxiuj cxi' or something like that, I'm basically saying 'all' - the problem with this is that it is far too ambiguous if I'm saying 'all these people' because 'cxiuj cxi homoj' simply translates to 'all people here',PMEG seems to view things differently to this, indicating the two forms ĉiuj ĉi homoj and ĉiuj ĉi tiuj homoj are essentially the same, as the left out tiuj is assumed to be "subkomprenata" (I word I absolutely love in Esperanto but have a hard time translating into English.. perhaps "understood according to context"
).PMEG:Oni iafoje uzas ĉi ankaŭ kune kun la tabelvortoj je ĈI. Tiam oni povus diri ke TI-vorto estas subkomprenata:I think therefore it's fair to say ĉiuj ĉi and ĉiuj ĉi tiuj are functionally the same. If someone said to me ĉiuj ĉi homoj I would definitely read that as "all these people".
* ĉio = ĉiuj aferoj → ĉio ĉi, ĉi ĉio = ĉiuj ĉi tiuj aferoj, ĉio tio ĉi
* ĉie = en ĉiuj lokoj → ĉie ĉi, ĉi ĉie = en ĉiuj tiuj ĉi lokoj, ĉie ĉi tie
mnlg (Pokaż profil) 14 września 2009, 21:55:54
tommjames:"subkomprenata" (I word I absolutely love in Esperanto but have a hard time translating into English..Interestingly enough, Italian has it (sottinteso) and I can't do without it when I teach Esperanto
ceigered (Pokaż profil) 15 września 2009, 01:41:44
patrik (Pokaż profil) 15 września 2009, 03:34:04
ceigered:Ok, well I guess 'ĉiuj ĉi homoj' is pretty easy to understand, but what happens if I throw things up (on purpose of course) and say 'all of those people' - ĉiuj malĉi homoj?I would use "ĉiuj for homoj", but I don't think it's worth using.
[I've seen "for tiuj", "for tie", but rarely.]
tommjames (Pokaż profil) 15 września 2009, 09:10:45
ceigered:but what happens if I throw things up (on purpose of course) and say 'all of those people' - ĉiuj malĉi homoj?Ĉiuj tiuj homoj
ceigered (Pokaż profil) 15 września 2009, 15:22:21
tommjames:ok that's what I thought, glad that's all sorted lol.ceigered:but what happens if I throw things up (on purpose of course) and say 'all of those people' - ĉiuj malĉi homoj?Ĉiuj tiuj homoj
Rogir (Pokaż profil) 16 września 2009, 10:19:09
Kraughne (Pokaż profil) 9 grudnia 2009, 06:39:01
Ĉiuj malĉi homoj looks totally okay to me. In fact, because of all this, I'm going to start using malĉi as often as possible.