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I can't do it

od uživatele Momomomomo ze dne 14. září 2009

Příspěvky: 88

Jazyk: English

Momomomomo (Ukázat profil) 22. září 2009 11:00:07

ceigered:How would this be done in EO though? Oni or ili? Or a surprise pronoun?
I read on wikipedia about an idea for that "gi", a combination of ĝi and ge-, I thought it sounded good but it isn't even on the esperanta version of the page so I guess it's not very big. [link]

patrik (Ukázat profil) 22. září 2009 12:36:08

Momomomomo:
ceigered:How would this be done in EO though? Oni or ili? Or a surprise pronoun?
I read on wikipedia about an idea for that "gi", a combination of ĝi and ge-, I thought it sounded good but it isn't even on the esperanta version of the page so I guess it's not very big. [link]
Too bad. malgajo.gif I really prefer "gi" over the popular "ri".

Oŝo-Jabe (Ukázat profil) 22. září 2009 19:11:00

Momomomomo:
ceigered:How would this be done in EO though? Oni or ili? Or a surprise pronoun?
I read on wikipedia about an idea for that "gi", a combination of ĝi and ge-, I thought it sounded good but it isn't even on the esperanta version of the page so I guess it's not very big. [link]
Well, "ĝi" is used for human children and animals. However "li" is the typical pronoun used when someone's sex is unknown.

PMEG:Kiam oni parolas pri persono, kies sekso ne estas konata, aŭ kiam oni parolas ĝenerale pri homo de iu ajn sekso, oni normale uzas li. Li do havas du signifojn: la vira persono aŭ la homo
When one talks about a person, whose sex us unknown, or when one speaks generally about a human of either sex, one normally uses "li." "Li"' therefore has two meanings: the male person or the human.

Elsewhere, there is mention that ambiguities can arise from this, and in those cases one can be more clear by saying: ŝi aŭ li, tiu, tiu persono k.s.

Zafur (Ukázat profil) 22. září 2009 20:11:07

Hmm. I think I'll be basically sticking with ĝi for things without known genders, human or inanimate. lango.gif Unless there's some reason not to.

gyrus (Ukázat profil) 23. září 2009 10:14:43

Zafur:Hmm. I think I'll be basically sticking with ĝi for things without known genders, human or inanimate. lango.gif Unless there's some reason not to.
It makes perfect sense to me. I think some people don't use it because they think it sounds "unnatural" to call a human by it.

tommjames (Ukázat profil) 23. září 2009 12:51:36

Zamenhof himself suggested the use of ĝi as the epicine 3rd person, but in his writings he only used it for babies and children and as far as I know never for people. Since that time ĝi has not gained significant acceptance and, as has been already mentioned, li is the usual pronoun.

I myself would have no problem using ĝi for the epicine, were it not for the fact it has never really been widely used and seems to upset so many people's sensibilities. I'd say that's a pretty good reason not to use it, despite the fact those attitudes may themselves be considered illogical in some way.

gyrus (Ukázat profil) 23. září 2009 14:03:37

R2D2!:
gyrus:...they think it sounds "unnatural" to call a human by it.
It's not "it", but "ĝi" lango.gif. The problem is that English speakers think they are the same.
--Ilhuıtemoc
Of course they're semantically different, I wasn't saying they weren't, but I meant in most people's mindset it is equivalent to "it" which is, at least in English, only used for inanimate objects.

ceigered (Ukázat profil) 23. září 2009 15:36:43

gyrus:
R2D2!:
gyrus:...they think it sounds "unnatural" to call a human by it.
It's not "it", but "ĝi" lango.gif. The problem is that English speakers think they are the same.
--Ilhuıtemoc
Of course they're semantically different, I wasn't saying they weren't, but I meant in most people's mindset it is equivalent to "it" which is, at least in English, only used for inanimate objects.
And likely the same for many other European languages that have a 'he', 'she' and 'it' equivalent, not really a English speaker problem here okulumo.gif. Of course this mindset probably depends on what linguistic background someone comes from, e.g. a Japanese speaker might associate 'tiu' and 'tio' with their version of 'it' (technically, there is no 'it' but either a blank space or 'kore/kono' or 'sore/sono' (this and that respectively) is used to represent the same thing).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronou...
http://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seksneŭtrala_homa_triapersona_pronomo

@ Osxo-Jabe, Momomomomo, Tommjames and the rest of the crew:

Cheers for the help, seems to have sparked an interesting new conversation topic!

jchthys (Ukázat profil) 23. září 2009 18:05:58

tommjames:Zamenhof himself suggested the use of ĝi as the epicine 3rd person, but in his writings he only used it for babies and children and as far as I know never for people.
Are not babies and children people? rido.gif

tommjames:Since that time ĝi has not gained significant acceptance and, as has been already mentioned, li is the usual pronoun.
I feel, however, that li should be used only for hypothetical or generic reference (such as ‘Each reader should decide for himself’), not in reference to a specific human being of unknown gender.

tommjames:I myself would have no problem using ĝi for the epicine, were it not for the fact it has never really been widely used and seems to upset so many people's sensibilities. I'd say that's a pretty good reason not to use it, despite the fact those attitudes may themselves be considered illogical in some way.
I agree. I think the best words to use would be tiu and ties. (The existence of si also helps.)

Zafur (Ukázat profil) 23. září 2009 20:39:42

I'm kind of against Li being used for generic usage at all, unless it is specifically referring to males (in general), especially with ĝi being conveniently available for the same exact purpose. There's already things in Esperanto that people seem to like to call sexist. lango.gif If the intended usage is generic with an unstated gender, I see no reason to use a pronoun that has any implied gender(s).
I'm kind of a fan of being completely ambiguous if possible. ridulo.gif

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