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Translation help for story dialogue

de ljbookworm, 2009-oktobro-12

Mesaĝoj: 40

Lingvo: English

Rogir (Montri la profilon) 2009-oktobro-20 14:05:47

Thanks for the corrections Erinja. I should have known about the adjectives.

Ironchef (Montri la profilon) 2009-oktobro-20 15:00:17

May I add a small question about the translation?

"Mi bedaŭras ke ni ne povas helpi vin pli."

I thought that "pli" was used when it stood before the thing it was more than: "pli lerta ol vi". I thought in this context, when the "more" is uncertain, you would use "plu".

Mi bedaŭras ke ni ne povas helpi vin plu.

Am I offtrack? Thanks.

Rogir (Montri la profilon) 2009-oktobro-20 15:20:28

You can say both, but the meaning is different.

"Mi bedaŭras ke ni ne povas helpi vin pli." - I am sorry that we cannot help you any further.

"Mi bedaŭras ke ni ne povas helpi vin plu." - I am sorry that we cannot help you anymore.

Ironchef (Montri la profilon) 2009-oktobro-20 15:39:04

Rogir:You can say both, but the meaning is different.

"Mi bedaŭras ke ni ne povas helpi vin pli." - I am sorry that we cannot help you any further.

"Mi bedaŭras ke ni ne povas helpi vin plu." - I am sorry that we cannot help you anymore.
Hmmm okay. That's very subtle though (at least to an English speaker). Thanks.

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2009-oktobro-20 16:58:27

According to PMEG:
"Se plu estas uzata kune kun nea vorto, ĝi montras, ke ago aŭ stato ne daŭras." I translate: "If plu is used with a ne-word, it shows that an act or state is not continuing."

Also, "Pli povas montri tempon nur se alia tempa vorto ĉeestas aŭ estas subkomprenata:" I translate: "Pli can indicate time only if another temporal word is present or is implicit:"
(See the third example in the box that follows).

That is, we can only use pli with a verb if we are associating it with another word that is an adjective, because pli is a comparative word.

Therefore, I share Ironchef's opinion in this case.

darkweasel (Montri la profilon) 2009-oktobro-20 17:23:41

"pli multe"?

mnlg (Montri la profilon) 2009-oktobro-20 17:24:03

Miland:According to PMEG
First of all, as much as I admire Mr. Wennergren's work, and I consider it to be of incomparable usefulness, I also remind that it is not by itself an official part of the language, and ultimately it represents a reflection of his own opinion, however eminent.
That is, we can only use pli with a verb if we are associating it with another word that is an adjective, because pli is a comparative word.
I do not agree; at the very least, "pli" can be used also with an adverb (simplest example: "mi fartas pli bone"). But again not necessarily. "Ĉu vi volas pli?" comes to mind as a (at least to me) perfectly acceptable question, in which "pli" is associated neither with an adjective nor an adverb (possibly with a noun, "pli multon", or with a partitive complement, "pli da tio", etc).

It is also worth mentioning the "ju...des" construct; "ju pli mi helpas, des pli mi feliĉas" is perfectly acceptable, and, again, it contains no traces of adjectives.

I might not be fully orthodox, but out of my personal experience, I also mentally connect "pli" with the concept of duration in space, and "plu" with duration in time, pretty much the way Rogir explained.

darkweasel (Montri la profilon) 2009-oktobro-20 17:28:00

I'd say that in all of your examples there's an implicit "multe".

ĉu vi volas pli multe?; pli multe da tio; ju pli multe mi helpas, des pli multe mi feliĉas

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2009-oktobro-21 21:22:16

mnlg: "mi fartas pli bone".."Ĉu vi volas pli?.."ju...des" construct; "ju pli mi helpas, des pli mi feliĉas".
I would regard pli bone as an extension of the association of pli with the adjectival root bon', that is, pli is being used in a comparative sense. The other uses, I would say, are idiomatic or unusual uses of pli, not typical ones. Thus the main use of pli is for adjectival comparison, not quantity.

erinja (Montri la profilon) 2009-oktobro-22 03:47:46

When I say "Mi povas helpi vin pli", "Ĉu vi volas manĝi pli?", etc, I am using "pli" almost as a surrogate for "pli multe". I don't see this as a problem at all; and in fact, pli is frequently used with adverbs.

And who's to say that eating more isn't comparative? If you haven't already eaten, I wouldn't ask if you want to eat more. If you have already eaten, I am asking you if you want to eat more than you have already eaten. So "Ĉu vi volas manĝi pli?" would be understood as something like "Ĉu vi volas manĝi pli ol la kvanto, kiun vi jam manĝis?"

It's still a comparison. You ran fast. Do you want to run faster than you have already run? So do you want to run "pli rapide"? You ate that much. Do you want to eat more than that much? So eat "pli [multe]?"

I'd be careful of invoking Bertilo to support a very limited use of "pli" as well. He wrote the course 'La puzlo Esperanto', and it includes the demonstration phrase "Mi ŝatus manĝi pli"

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