Mesaĝoj: 58
Lingvo: English
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-06 15:01:27
Miland:Wells renders both eblo and ebleco by 'possibility'. Although PMEG disapproves of the usual use of ebleco, both forms are widely used, and so I don't think the distinction matters.It does matter to a minute* extent with "ebleco" - namely, when we're talking about something being a possibility. "Tiu metodo estas ebleco" doesn't really make sense - take out the ec' and it's fine
*(/mighnyoot/, forgot how to spell the word)
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-06 15:30:47
ceigered:"Tiu metodo estas ebleco" doesn't really make sense - take out the ec' and it's fineGood point, and it is true that PIV 2005 defines eblo as io, kion oni povas fari.
On the other hand, I wonder whether it is right to effectively define eblo as eblaĵo. I have some sympathy with patrik's argument that eblo should be something more abstract like vero or bono.
It may be that eblo and ebleco can both be used idiomatically for eblaĵo. At any rate, I found two instances of estas ebleco in the tekstaro and three of estas eblo, and I've added 'much' as a qualification to my earlier message!
Belmiro (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-06 15:43:01
“Eblo” kaj “ebleco” estas malsamaj vortoj kun malsamaj signifoj. Oni trovas klarigon ĉe www.lernu.net
En la ĉefa paĝo sekvu: Lernado > Lingvodemandoj > Demandolisto > kiuj eraroj estas oftaj en Esperanto?
Ĝis!
tommjames (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-06 16:20:13
Miland:Wells renders both eblo and ebleco by 'possibility'.Thats because we use the same word in English to cover both ideas.
Miland:Although PMEG disapproves of the usual use of ebleco, both forms are widely used, and so I don't think the distinction matters much.Just my own opinion here but I'd say it's a bad idea to indicate a quality when none meaningfully exists. People do use "ebleco" to speak of a possibility, rather than the quality of being possible, but I don't think that makes it acceptable. A statement like mi havos eblecon, something which I see fairly commonly, strikes me as very dubious as it suggests another idea altogether (that of being possible myself, rather than having something possible at my disposal). You'd probably be understood, but does that make it ok? I don't think so.
As already pointed out, technically "eblo" can be used for the full spectrum of ideas related to possibility (a possible thing, possibility itself, or the quality of being possible), and you can clarify the sense with "ec" and "aĵ" when it seems necessary depending on the context. But I think "possible thing" is the more sensible and useful interpretation, as well as most in line with traditional usage.
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-06 17:13:38
tommjames:"possible thing" is the more sensible and useful interpretation, as well as most in line with traditional usage.I suspect that eblo is often used idiomatically in concrete situations. That doesn't bother me.
In expressions like 'There is no possibility of rain', the idea of 'chance' is an abstraction from 'possible thing', so to my mind ebleco is more suitable here.
In the end, even Esperanto as a living language is determined by evolving customary usage. I have no misgivings about ebleco as it is usually used.
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-06 18:04:51
Miland:In expressions like 'There is no possibility of rain', the idea of 'chance' is an abstraction from 'possible thing', so to my mind ebleco is more suitable here.I feel the same - it's basically the same as saying (but more concisely) "the rain's trait of being possible is non-existent" which would be "la ebla eco de la pluvo estas neesta", right? (I'm now too tired today to bother using this brain of mine any further
) tommjames (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-06 19:48:08
Miland:In expressions like 'There is no possibility of rain', the idea of 'chance' is an abstraction from 'possible thing', so to my mind ebleco is more suitable here.If you think the idea you're trying to convey in some way encapsulates the notion of a quality then I'd have nothing against "ebleco" either, and the 'chance of rain' scenario may well be an example of that. Beyond those types of situtations though I can't see the justification for it. "Ec" shows a quality. If no quality exists then why on earth would you want to show one?
I agree with PMEG on this point, that EC estas uzata mallogike pro influo de naciaj lingvoj (EC is used illogically due to influence from national languages). To me illogical usage is worth avoiding, even if it's become somewhat popular due to sloppy usage by some speakers.
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-07 10:57:12
white knight:For me, as a German, there is no difference between the two words.As in you only have one word (Möglichkeit) and not two?
Or you can not see the difference between eblo (Möglichkeit) and ebleco ("Möglichkeiteigenschaft" oder "eine Möglichkeit, die eine Eigenschaft ist")?
(sorry, my German is not very good, but hopefully that little sentence was correct
). Miland (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-07 13:52:39
tommjames:I agree with PMEG on this point..The example used in PMEG is in fact a case where ebleco is used logically as an abstract chance, as it should be. Havas eblecon is much more common a form than than estas ebleco, of which I found only one example in the tekstaro, and so I would say, unlike PMEG, that EC kutime estas uzata logike.
As for estas ebleco, the idiomatic identification of a thing with a quality may well come from languages that use expressions like 'he did a kindness'. Substituting havi for esti might make a statement more precise, but since I see it as idiomatic usage, I'm not losing any sleep over it.
dimichxp (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-07 14:23:45
Miland:Let's analyze it logically:tommjames:I agree with PMEG on this point..The example used in PMEG is in fact a case where ebleco is used logically as an abstract chance, as it should be. Havas eblecon is much more common a form than than estas ebleco, of which I found only one example in the tekstaro, and so I would say, unlike PMEG, that EC kutime estas uzata logike.
As for estas ebleco, the idiomatic identification of a thing with a quality may well come from languages that use expressions like 'he did a kindness'. Substituting havi for esti might make a statement more precise, but since I see it as idiomatic usage, I'm not losing any sleep over it.
Havi eblecon = havi eco esti ebla ~= esti ebla.
Havi eblon = havi ion kio estas ebla.
That's absolutely different senses. If you say 'mi havas eblecon' then you are saying that your are possible (by itself, don't know what that means). If you say 'mi havas eblon' then are saying that you have something that you can do.
Please avoid words like "idiomatic" in sense "it's illogical but i'll accept it because my native language does it that way" when talking about international language. It's not english, it should be based on logic when possible. Saying 'mi havas eblecon' in sense 'i can do it' is mistake, it should be avoided. Saying 'estas ebleco fari tion' in that sense is mistake too, it should be interpreted like "there is some probability that i will do it". Please don't advocate mistakes.