niko-tina:

Miland:

dimichxp:It's not an idiom, it's well-established mistake..If there are no better arguments than kinda greater experience, i see no reason to continue the "discussion".

It is an idiom, and no mistake. It is you for whom one needs to be sorry, as you are not capable of learning from anyone else's experience. Therefore, you will have to learn a few things yourself the hard way. I now leave you to it.

Miland, do every single one of the people you heard saying "havas eblecon" were aware of it being an idiom? Have they made their choice between using "eblo" or "ebleco"? In other words, did they voluntarily use a word (knowing that it was a mistake before, but now it has become an idiom)?
Also, when does a mistake become an idiom?

And even if really a mistake has become an idiom, I would prefer not to use this idiom, because otherwise, as dimichxp wrote, Esperanto becomes the same chaos like the national languages.

niko-tina:Miland, were every single one of the people you heard saying "havas eblecon" aware of it being an idiom? Have they made their choice between using "eblo" or "ebleco"?
Also, when does a mistake become an idiom?

It probably began as a form taken from a national language without much consciousness of being it being idiomatic. I don't agree about it being a mistake, but as to the question of 'when', I would suggest when it is used widely, for instance used in conversations, in meetings or the internet, and especially published in widely read magazines like Monato, or in books.

But there is a more fundamental issue. The Fundamento may be untouchable, but beyond that we need freedom and toleration of different styles and modes of expression. It is one thing to have a difference of opinion, but it is another to impose an opinion on another. That is why I might say I prefer X but that doesn't give me the right to accuse others of all sorts of things if they prefer Y. So it is important to preserve a tolerant atmosphere. As the saying goes, Esperanto estas nenies propraĵo.

There are words like: bono, belo, - what do they mean? Do they express the same idea as "boneco" and "beleco" do?
Actually why can`t we just make up that "eblo" and such contain both concepts in them, quality and object? Should you want to emphasize any of them, you just add the specific endings "eco" or "aĵo" to define the meaning.

Taciturn_:There are words like: bono, belo, - what do they mean? Do they express the same idea as "boneco" and "beleco" do?
Actually why can`t we just make up that "eblo" and such contain both concept in them, quality and object? Should you want to emphasize any of them, you just add the specific endings "eco" or "aĵo" to define the meaning.

There is no problem if some would use "eblo" in sense of "ebleco", that people use "ebleco" in sense of "eblo". Didn't you see the people are saying "Mi havas eblecon"? There is one of two things: or everyone just don't understand what -ec means, or they are not trying to think what they are saying, just blabbering. Both variants do not make a honour to such so-called "Esperantists".

dimichxp:Both variants do not make a honour to such so-called "Esperantists".

Hold your horses there - being an Esperantist is not an elitist sort of thing. There are different forms of Esperantist, many who make mistakes too (myself included). So maybe saying "Both variants make the Esperantist sound like a komencanto" would be better.

(also:

dimichxp: or everyone just don't understand what -ec means, or they are not trying to think what they are saying

Hopefully you do not mind me saying this - instead of saying "There is one of two things: or everyone ........", say "It's one of two things: either everyone ......." - English is silly and doesn't use "or" twice for some reason. Sorry if you already knew it and just made a accidental mistake

ceigered:
Hold your horses there - being an Esperantist is not an elitist sort of thing. There are different forms of Esperantist, many who make mistakes too (myself included). So maybe saying "Both variants make the Esperantist sound like a komencanto" would be better.

Well, sorry if it looks offensive, may be i'm really a bit angry here, but of course i don't mean that everyone should be ideal person, whether one is esperantist or not *rideto*. Making mistakes is not a problem at all, i'm doing that a lot of time. I meant 'this is not a mistake but an idiom' attitide.

Hopefully you do not mind me saying this - instead of saying "There is one of two things: or everyone ........", say "It's one of two things: either everyone ......." - English is silly and doesn't use "or" twice for some reason. Sorry if you already knew it and just made a accidental mistake

Thanks, i must confess i do not know english well (have never studied nor practiced it specifically). It's nothing to be proud of. I guess it seems silly when i'm trying to "teach" not knowing the language myself.

niko-tina:"ebleco" instead of "eblo".. I'm just qualifying it as a mistake..You will not be speaking Esperanto, though, but what's the problem with that?

I don't classify it as a mistake, and I affirm that it is valid Esperanto. Your problem is that of not being able to tolerate a different opinion, of which this sarcastic rhetorical question is proof.

I do not think it worthwhile to continue this debate, and so will not answer further contributions from yourself on this subject.

@ Dimichxp - I wouldn't worry about your English, it's quite good! Practice will no doubt bring it up to perfection

@ Niko-tina & Miland & Dimichxp & any one else - Once again, hopefully none of you will be offended by what I say, but you seem to be misunderstanding eachother a tiny bit from what I see.

From how I see it, Miland is trying to be considerate for komencantoj, lernantoj and those who have particularly influenced "dialects" of Esperanto, and thereby accepts "ebleco" as a valid form by way of numbers.

Dimichxp, Niko-tina, someone else (Maybe tommjames or horsto?) and myself disagree and treat it as wrong because as we see it, ebleco does not mean the same as eblo in "mi havas eblo/eblajxo".

Now, the rational for it being wrong is that it seems illogical and contrary to the rules (just as "me" instead of "mi" is bad esperanto (and my most common mistake )). This is similar to "korekta" instead of "gxusta", "prava" and "vera". However, many still use "korekta", and no doubt some use "kontroli" incorrectly too. Furthermore, "-eco" is superfluous to begin with even if "ebleco" was right in this context. But because the Latin -ity/ité/ità roughly correlates to -eco, people get confused and may think "well, if it's "possibility in my language, then it should be "ebleco" in EO. But it doesn't quite work that way because -ity/ité/ità do not entirely equal -eco, only in some cases. In this way, "ebleco" could be regarded as being as incorrect as saying "la korekta homo" - "the right man" - instead of "la gxusta homo".

On the flipside, we do not want to ostricise learners or beginners by going "sorry, thats totally incorrect" or something definite and blunt like that. And in a real life scenario, we don't, rather we let them off lightly and try and aid them by maybe repeating what they said in correct Esperanto . Miland, from what I see, recognises this and seems to be pushing for "Hey guys, look, it's not that bigger deal, and I don't want people to get too religious or something over this" (If Miland talked like that here though, I'd go like this = ).

So, to conclude, and to help disperse this akward atmosphere, "ebleco" is seen as being not correct in logic and definition. It however has some users, which need to be recognised and given the same rights as any other EO speakers (although maybe someone should tell them that they don't understand what they're saying to coerce them to reword "ebleco" to something better ). The important point though is that learners are taught the correct phrase, which would not be ebleco. Once they know that, they can use ebleco incorrectly if they want, but they need to be aware that it is not deemed universally correct. kontraux-eblecistoj need to recognise also that ebleco is not deemed universally incorrect. If communication fails, everyone should just fall back on Eblo. Problem solvered (obscure reference to an aussie paint ad).

And now I'm officially tired