This is Robb Kvasnak, Ed.D.
First off, I have to add that I have taught Esperanto and English (American English). I also teach teachers how to teach English as a second language. Unfortunately, I don't have the venue to do the same for Esperanto. I do, however, use Esperanto in my demonstrations of how to teach English and other foreign languages. My students are all surprised how quickly they start to use Esperanto for in-class conversations - usually to be "cute" but soon they are fascinated at how rapidly they advance.
I have taught American English in Europe and here in the USA for years. In fact, the books that are used here "Focus on Grammar" are much thicker than the grammar book that I showed in the video. "Focus on Grammar" has approximately 10 volumes and occupies an entire bookcase shelf. Even after absolving several years of study here in the USA, surrounded by English speakers and English-language media, most of the students in the intensive English programs, are not capable of taking university level courses taught in English.
I speak, read, write and understand 10 languages, one of which is Esperanto. I have spent decades studying Second Language Acquisition and wrote my dissertation on this subject, some 200 pages, which I successfully defended in front of a committee of scholars. I have presented at conferences and published papers on Second Language Acquisition in peer review journals. Without being arrogant, I believe that I have some founded knowledge of the subject. I am, therefore, not simply somebody with an opinion about the comparative difficulties of acquiring Esperanto and English. I used the books in order to illustrate a point that peers in my field would understand without the video.
As the need to acquire Chinese starts to supersede the need to acquire English (either the British variety or that used in North America) I predict that the world's populations are going to start to reconsider which language is useful for international communications.
Sincerely,

tommjames:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finvenkismo

I agree to this part: "members should not concentrate on the propagation of the language but rather on its cultivation." Does this include "leading other people to the same positive esperanto language learning experiences like my own ones" (you could do that only with peoply who failed or had big problems with other languages) or wrapping some cultural ideas around esperanto i.e. Spoken Word culture k.t.p.?

Raŭmismo/Civitanismo

Since 1980, Finvenkismo encountered criticism by so-called Raŭmismo. This ideological current interprets the Esperanto community as a language diaspora, whose members should not concentrate on the propagation of the language but rather on its cultivation. The term Raŭmismo comes from a manifesto signed by many participants of the Youth Esperanto Congress in the Finnish town Rauma in 1980.

Soon the word Raŭmismo acquired two different meanings: According to some, a Raŭmist is just someone who uses Esperanto without propagating it. According to the more ideological Raŭmismo, a Raŭmist is someone who considers the Esperanto community a self chosen linguistic minority and supports attempts to get a state-like representation for this minority. This more ideological Raŭmismo is now often called Civitanismo, because it is the official ideology of the Esperanta Civito (Esperanto Citizens' Community), an organisation which attempts to be such a state-like representation of the Esperanto diaspora.

ceigered:how long does it take to become perfect in Esperanto? No doubt as long as it would to become perfect in English.

No doubt, I really hate this kind of statements from native english speaking people. You ignore the experience from all people who learnt both languages, english and Esperanto, as a second language. The difference of learning them is immense, you really can't compare it.
I once read a message like this here in the forum, perhaps you agree with it:

somebody:I don't know why so many people have difficulties to learn the english language. In England every child is able to learn english.

.

robbkvasnak:...

Thank you, robbkvasnak, for your post here. I really liked your video.

horsto:

ceigered:how long does it take to become perfect in Esperanto? No doubt as long as it would to become perfect in English.

No doubt, I really hate this kind of statements from native english speaking people. You ignore the experience from all people who learnt both languages, english and Esperanto, as a second language. The difference of learning them is immense, you really can't compare it.
I once read a message like this here in the forum, perhaps you agree with it:

somebody:I don't know why so many people have difficulties to learn the english language. In England every child is able to learn english.

I understand your anger which is probably triggered by the spreaded hidden agreement of the english bridge language status. I notice that by myself: As more I learn esperanto as more I deny the bridge language status to English. So, maybe Esperanto makes you aware what character a bridge language should have. But please, keep in mind: the most english native lernu.net user are very open minded. Apart from being a single opinion: who will cares of a CIT= somebody/ somebody skribis? Or is it a user? Which *somebody*?

@admin: Why I can not show up the "all lernu.net" users list? Could be interesting.

"Search Result Too many hits; make your search more detailed."

robbkvasnak:Without being arrogant, I believe that I have some founded knowledge of the subject. I am, therefore, not simply somebody with an opinion about the comparative difficulties of acquiring Esperanto and English. I used the books in order to illustrate a point that peers in my field would understand without the video.

Hi,

I think your skills were not put into question. The only thing put into debate is:

- does we can compare difficulties of a language according to the thickness of grammar books.

- Does the books you have presented are comparable.

I personnally learned english at school, and I have never see that thick books. I guess that books are dedicated to native speakers or people who speak english at a high level.

In the same time you present a thin Esperanto learning book, to begin from scratch I suppose.

So I guess it would be more objective to compare books of the same level: PMEG compared to the 700pages book, PIV compared to english complete dictionnary.

And to be the most scientific, the best would be to compare the content need to reach (let's say) level C1 of the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (which is a reference in europe, and now exist also in esperanto)

jan aleksan:
And to be the most scientific, the best would be to compare the content need to reach (let's say) level C1 of the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (which is a reference in europe, and now exist also in esperanto)

Good point jan aleksan.

Anybody can find more information here. The regarding pdf (in eo) can be downloaded here

reference to Common European Framework of Reference for Languages. That's not theoretical stuff only. These language A1/B1 etc. levels are announced in daily life (just in Europe?) job offers.

Horsto, before you make me look like an ignorant fool who doesn't understand that English is actually harder than Esperanto for non-speakers to learn, please note I said "perfect". Not "good at", but "perfect; without blemish".

I, conversely to you, am really annoyed by those kind of ignorant statements that make Esperanto sound like it is infinitely easier than everything else. It isn't. Easier, yes, but only because it has less irregularities. It still has neologisms, problems with transitivity and an almost arbitrary system of how words are made noun roots or adjectival roots et cetera. It lacks many benefits of an analytical language, has a very complex system for affixes where things are added to the back and front, and whether something is added to the back or front is seemingly just as arbitrary as the root-classification system. This makes it very similar to natural languages in many respects, especially in that one can't claim perfection in the language after learning the various intricacies of the language.

It may be easier to speak than other languages, but the differences in difficulty starts to level out the higher you aim for perfection in the language. Thinking otherwise is plain naïve, and to treat this like it's some kind of war between English and Esperanto is ridiculous (you all probably know I think that way by now). People should learn languages because they want to, listening to how "hard" a language is just closes the mind off to the whole process.

I apologise Horsto for angering you, but I don't want people to believe Esperanto will solve their problems, and I don't want people to treat a natural language like English (or German, or French, or Danish, or Ancient Greek) like it's evil and impossible to learn.

ceigered:...but I don't want people to believe Esperanto will solve their problems, and I don't want people to treat a natural language like English (or German, or French, or Danish, or Ancient Greek) like it's evil and impossible to learn.

I agree, for me Esperanto is propaedeutic to motivate myself improving my english. (Just to mention that. I still wrote it at another post. I'm not at a "propaedeutic mission" )

ceigered:Horsto, before you make me look like an ignorant fool who doesn't understand that English is actually harder than Esperanto for non-speakers to learn, please note I said "perfect".

I can't make you look like that, and I certainly don't intend that. I didn't want to attack you personally, only this kind of statements, as I wrote.
I don't know why we should talk about perfectness, it's an idea and does not exist in reality. Nobody on earth is perfect in any language, therefore you perhaps are right, it takes the same time to get perfect in both languages.

ceigered:
I, conversely to you, am really annoyed by those kind of ignorant statements that make Esperanto sound like it is infinitely easier than everything else...

I can understand that, but we were not talking about anything else, we were talking about the comparison between english and Esperanto.

ceigered:
People should learn languages because they want to, ...

Yes, it should be like that, but it is so only for people who natively speak english. All over people have to learn english, they cannot choose. I don't know why you ignore this fact.
Please try to understand the frustation and anger of somebody, who tried to learn english for years and then finds out, that he can achieve the same level in Esperanto within a few months. That's what happened to me.

Ok, I see your point Horsto, and I apologise - I guess it's hard for me to really grasp the plight of those in Europe and elsewhere where English is the language they need to learn, especially since here it's more Chinese/Japanese/Indonesian. So I'm sorry, I shouldn't really reply when I'm tired