Messaggi: 23
Lingua: English
ceigered (Mostra il profilo) 01 aprile 2010 12:17:46
tommjames:Haha that's amazing, it must be a regional thing, as it's rare to hear anything like that here (unless maybe it's that emphatic stuff I was on about before, even then I can't remember having heard "exit out of"). Australian English tends to be lazy though, so having two extra words wouldn't be something we'd aim to have (Heck, we can't even have "thanks" anymore coz it's too long, "cheers" or "ta" tends to be more commonceigered:if I saw "enter in" and "exit out of" I'd find it very weirdFor "enter in" I agree it is a bit strange but I was really talking about "exit out of", and I don't see it as all that strange in this instance. Google has some 2 million results for this, as well as quit a few google-suggest options in the drop down menu that appears when you do a search.
).Darkweasel:Note that the English exit comes from Latin exit, which is the third-person singular present indicative of exire (where ex means "out of" and ire means "to go" - so it's formed just like the Esperanto eliri).That's exactly why I find it so strange - then again I guess out of the 300 million native speakers of English only half would really care about etymologies...
erinja (Mostra il profilo) 01 aprile 2010 14:03:03
You can definitely enter into a contract with someone, enter into an agreement, etc. Those uses sound perfectly normal.
"Exit from" is a perfectly good translation for "eliri el"
A lot of news lately has been talking about Google's exit from China, right?
In this case, "from" would be translated as "el". "La eliro de Google el Ĉinio", would be the Esperanto translation of that expression.
lavagulo (Mostra il profilo) 02 aprile 2010 13:40:38
darkweasel (Mostra il profilo) 02 aprile 2010 14:20:25
lavagulo:One combined form that confuses me is ‘prizorgi’ or ‘zorgi pri’, as in ”La patrino zorgas pri siaj infanoj” and “La patrino prizorgas siajn infanojn”. Both sentences indicate that the mother is looking after her children. ‘Zorgi’ just seems to have too many closely related definitions. Is anyone else confused by this word?In many cases, pri- used as a prefix is there just to change what the object indicates. For example, the object of rabi is the thing robbed, while the object of prirabi is the person robbed.
erinja (Mostra il profilo) 02 aprile 2010 15:26:24
In this case, prizorgi has a markedly different meaning from zorgi pri. "La virino zorgas pri la infanoj" would usually mean that the woman cares about the children, or worries about them. "La virino prizorgas la infanojn" would normally mean that she takes care of them. It's very like the difference between "I care about children" and "I do childcare". Roughly the same words, re-organized, with a different meaning.
Prizorgi can also mean "take care of" in the sense of getting something accomplished or overseeing something. "Mi prizorgos la feston" probably means that I am handling the planning of a party, taking care of the arrangements.
lavagulo (Mostra il profilo) 02 aprile 2010 20:36:22
From Wells' and Butler's dictionaries:
zorgo, = care, concern, worry.
--Ĉiu morgaŭ havas sian zorgon.
--akcepti infanon sub sian zorgon.
zorge, = carefully, with care.
zorga, = careful, attentive, watchful.
--...sub la zorga okulo de...
senzorga, = carefree.
--senzorga vivo.
zorgema, = careful (tendency or disposition).
zorganto, = guardian, protector, caretaker.
zorgi, = to care, care for, to look after. (see flegi, varti)
--Faru vian aferon, Dio zorgos ceteron.
From 'Being Colloquial in Esperanto':
zorgi pri = to attend to, take responsibility for, care for, tend.
(Even more than klopodi, zorgi tends to suggest anxiety. The compound
prizorgi is as common as zorgi pri.)
--Patrino zorgas pri siaj infanoj. = A mother looks after her children.
--Vi prizorgu la manĝaĵon. = You look after the food.
--Vi neniam prizorgas pri mi! = You never bother about me!
--Pli da havo, pli da zorgoj. = More possessions, more cares.
--Li suferas pro financaj zorgoj. = He suffers from financial worries.
--Li havas financajn zorgojn. = He has financial responsibilities.
From other:
--Viro mortis, kaj post lia morto neniu prizorgis lian nigran hundon.
--prizorgi ĝardenon.
ceigered (Mostra il profilo) 03 aprile 2010 06:04:12
erinja:"Enter in" and "exit out of" might sound weird. But "eniri en" and "eliri el" have more than one potential English translation, and the idioms "enter into" and "exit from" are perfectly good English, and we use them all the time.But, let's think about it - what is the difference between "Google eliris Cxinio" and "Google eliris el Cxinio"? Zip, because they both mean "Google went out from within China". I still think it's bad English, I mean, it's acceptable, but it's up there in the "try to avoid" books, along with saying "phenomenons" (phenomena) and "octopi" (octopuses/octopodes) for me
You can definitely enter into a contract with someone, enter into an agreement, etc. Those uses sound perfectly normal.
"Exit from" is a perfectly good translation for "eliri el"
A lot of news lately has been talking about Google's exit from China, right?
In this case, "from" would be translated as "el". "La eliro de Google el Ĉinio", would be the Esperanto translation of that expression.
.And the same thing with "entering into a contract with someone" - "entering a contract with someone" and "entering into a contract with someone" mean the same thing - entering means you have to go into the object, so having "into" there is superfluous, unless your word order means you must have it (e.g. "eniri el stacidomo en la vendejon" - enter from the station into the home - the station might be of more importance than the home in this sentence).
Another way of thinking of it in case I've confused everyone with my sloppy posting skills: "eniri hejmon" (enter a home) = "iri en hejmon" (go into a home)
I would however agree that things like "Google's exit from/of China" are correct English/Esperanto however, because a noun cannot have an object.
darkweasel (Mostra il profilo) 03 aprile 2010 08:04:08
ceigered:Google eliris Ĉinujon
But, let's think about it - what is the difference between "Google eliris Cxinio" and "Google eliris el Cxinio"?
ceigered (Mostra il profilo) 03 aprile 2010 09:55:50
darkweasel:Ah... So the difference is that one is me not being able to spellceigered:Google eliris Ĉinujon
But, let's think about it - what is the difference between "Google eliris Cxinio" and "Google eliris el Cxinio"?
tommjames (Mostra il profilo) 03 aprile 2010 10:22:05
Some examples from the Wikipedia page on redundancy:
"a variety of different items", "an added bonus", "to over-exaggerate", "and etc.", "end result", "free gift", "future plans", "unconfirmed rumor", "to kill, murder, or electrocute someone to death", "past history", "safe haven", "potential hazard", "completely surrounded", "false pretense."
As for "exit out of", my experience is that this is used in a variety of ways but most notably in the context of computer software where one thinks of "exiting out of" a particular application or operating environment. I simply defy anybody to search Google and scan the plethora of results that come back for this and say these people are speaking "weird" English.