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peni vs. provi

de lavagulo, 4 avril 2010

Messages : 17

Langue: English

lavagulo (Voir le profil) 4 avril 2010 17:28:09

I'd like to ask about the use of two words, peni and provi. They are different in meaning yet I seem to see provi used a lot on this forum in situations where I think peni should be used. I cannot give you any examples right off, but if I draw attention to them, maybe you will begin to notice them.

peni, = to endeavor, to try, to make an effort. | peno, = effort. | pene, = with effort.
Mi dankas vin pro viaj penoj. = I thank you for your efforts.
Mi penos veni al la kongreso. = I will try to come to the congress.
La maljuna ĉevalo vane penis kuri pli rapide. = The old horse vainly tried to run faster.
Mi penas trovi la ĝustan uzadon de ĉi tiuj vortoj. = I am trying to find the correct use of these words.

provi, = to try (a thing out), to test, to attempt, to see if a thing can be done. | provaĵo, = trial, test.
provi medikamenton sur malsanulo. = to try out medicine on a sick person.
kontroli la valoron de io. = to check (or verify) the value of something.
Jen. Provu ĉi tiun cigaron. = Here. Try out this cigar.
Fajro provas la oron. = Fire tests the gold.

The Reta Vortaro translates these as peni = to try and provi = to attempt. Looking at the meanings of provi above, to attempt is just one meaning and not the primary one.

May I assume that the above is correct or am I missing something. As I said, I really do see provi used where it looks like it shouldn't be used.

trojo (Voir le profil) 4 avril 2010 18:54:40

There's often some logical overlap. Trying something out often also involves putting forth some sort of effort. Also, putting an effort forth to do something does not necessarily carry a certain chance of success, and therefore may be seen as an attempt as well as an effort. I guess it comes down to which you want to emphasize: the effort aspect, or the attempt aspect.

Or you could be lazy and always say "provi".

The danger of having such fine distinctions in the language is that most people will just mess them up anyway.

Donniedillon (Voir le profil) 4 avril 2010 20:22:57

What!?!? Overlap? Nuance? Can it be possible? I guess an invented language is capable of nuance after all. Put that is you pipe and smoke it you nay-sayers!

darkweasel (Voir le profil) 4 avril 2010 21:40:04

Peni is more for "to try hard", provi for simple trying. There's also the word klopodi with a similar meaning to peni that can be used, for example, if you find past tense penis too embarassing. (Ĉu vi longe penis?)

erinja (Voir le profil) 4 avril 2010 23:28:25

I normally translate "peni" as "to strive", "provi" as "to try".

These instances are where you really want to look at an Esperanto-only dictionary rather than trying to tease out the meaning using the difference in English translations.

Reta Vortaro has:
peni - Energie kaj lacige streĉi siajn fortojn por atingi rezulton [to expend your strength energetically to achieve a result, thereby causing fatigue]

It's is an extremely non-literal translation - the literal translation is "energetically and tiringly to stress one's strength to achieve a result"

I think "strive" is a good translation here, but I would love to hear suggestions, if anyone else has an English translation of "to try" that also includes the idea of trying so hard and energetically that it tires you out

provi - Apliki objekton al ĝia destino, por kontroli, ĉu ĝi taŭgas, ĉu ĝi plaĉas [To apply an object to its objective, to check on whether it is suitable or whether it is pleasing]

I think that's a pretty good description of "to try"

Esperanto also has "strebi" which I'd also translate with "strive"; it's similar in meaning to "peni", but without the idea of making yourself tired with the effort.

"Klopodi" is also similar, but has the idea that you are trying all kinds of different strategies to achieve your goal. ReVo translates it as "to undertake". It is more about doing what is necessary to make something happen, and less about the idea of trying (and ReVo groups it in meaning with words like okupigxi ("to occupy oneself with something"), celi ("to aim"), and zorgi ("to worry/care"), not with the variant forms of "to try")

horsto (Voir le profil) 4 avril 2010 23:38:56

I think the english translation in Revo is wrong, there's definitly a difference between provi and peni, look for example at the german translation. The translation for peni should be to make an effort.
But I'm not sure, look at the many translations for the german word bemühen = peni in the popular german-english dictionary Leo
That's what makes the english language so difficult.

lavagulo (Voir le profil) 4 avril 2010 23:49:30

Aaaahhhh, darkweasel, honte al vi! Ĉu vi ne scias, ke la pli maljuna oni fariĝas,... Mi NE kompletigos la frazon. ploro.gif

tommjames (Voir le profil) 5 avril 2010 00:00:09

lavagulo:ke la pli maljuna
That would be "ke ju pli maljuna".

Bennon (Voir le profil) 5 avril 2010 03:59:17

I thought the same as lavagulo when I read the definitions. According to the Reta Vortaro, "peni" isn't simply "to attempt (to do sth)," but "provi" seems more like the spanish word "probar." Only by definition, "peni" seems more suited to be used to mean "to attempt (to do sth)," but it either (a) the english translations don't properly convey the meaning of the word, or (b) the meaning of the words in common use does not reflect the proper definition of the words. It seems to be (a). Either way, I figure it's probably best just to go with it and use provi at this point. I would, however, support making the english definition more precise in ReVo.

The Lernu dictionary seems to define them the way they are used, esp. "peni - multe provi," kaj "provi - to attempt."
Looking at the meanings of provi above, to attempt is just one meaning and not the primary one.
I think it is better to view provi as having more than one primary definition instead of viewing "to try" as subordinate to testing something out.

ceigered (Voir le profil) 5 avril 2010 05:59:56

Donniedillon:What!?!? Overlap? Nuance? Can it be possible? I guess an invented language is capable of nuance after all. Put that is you pipe and smoke it you nay-sayers!
"Mi ne pensas tiel! Erm... Mi ne opinias tiel! Erm.... Darn, touché!"

rido.gif

Back on topic...
One way to tell them apart could be this way:

A scientist excited about his new research project reporting to his superior:
"Jes! Mi ja penos por fari mian plejn bonan laboron, Sinjoro!"

An elder brother being asked to fix something trivial for his sibling when he really just wants to watch TV:
"Jessss, mi provos......"

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