הודעות: 22
שפה: English
horsto (הצגת פרופיל) 7 במאי 2010, 19:57:16
tommjames:I totally agree. Why using the less clear -iĝ suffix instead of the exactly for this purpose defined passive voice?
Personally I will never say something like "la muso manĝiĝis de la kato" for the passive, this kind of usage is not typical Esperanto and is grammatically questionable. But I won't complain if I see it because the intended meaning is usually clear enough.
And I never found this usage (verb+iĝi + de) in a book.
tommjames:In fact PMEG says, that "iĝ in a transitive verb is not to do with change of state" except the change of state which is already in the verb.
Regarding that page on PMEG, I would say that part of the explanation given for the meaning of iĝ in a transitive verb is slightly misleading. It says that "iĝ in a transitive verb is not to do with change of state", yet it then goes on to give the example cited by Miland above, of "iĝi detruita", which as far as I'm concerned is about as much a change of state as any you're likely to see, such as "paliĝis" or "ruĝiĝis".
tommjames (הצגת פרופיל) 7 במאי 2010, 20:22:27
horsto:In fact PMEG says, that "iĝ in a transitive verb is not to do with change of state" except the change of state which is already in the verb.Aha yes I overlooked that part. Guess I take that back then!
k1attack (הצגת פרופיל) 8 במאי 2010, 20:05:09
tommjames:No! "La muso estis mangxita/mangxitas" means "The mouse had been eaten." I want the simple past form (for the passive), not the perfect, pluperfect or past continuous form. e.g. "I ate" rather than I have eaten, I was eating and I had eaten.k1attack:How do I say "The mouse was eaten" rather than "The mouse was being eaten" and "The mouse has been eaten.", how?The mouse was eaten = La muso estis manĝita
The mouse was being eaten = La muso estis manĝata
The mouse has been eaten = La muso estas manĝita
Of course there are other ways to show these ideas but the above is how you would do it using the participles.
How can I say passives without an agent e.g. "The water is cleaned. Then, it is heated."
tommjames (הצגת פרופיל) 8 במאי 2010, 20:40:57
k1attack:"La muso estis mangxita/mangxitas" means "The mouse had been eaten.""La muso estis mangxita" can mean both "the mouse had been eaten" and "the mouse was eaten". Context will usually make clear what the intended sense is.
k1attack:I want the simple past form (for the passive)There isn't one. Esperanto forms passives using the participles.
k1attack:e.g. "I ate" rather than I have eaten"I ate" would be "mi manĝis".
k1attack:How can I say passives without an agentThe same as if there is an agent. You just leave the agent out.
k1attack (הצגת פרופיל) 8 במאי 2010, 21:37:55
tommjames:The same as if there is an agent. You just leave the agent out.When I said agentless verbs, I meant saying "The mouse was eaten" but with the active voice "?????? ate the mouse"
Is it possible to say "manĝis la muson", is it? (without a subject)
tommjames (הצגת פרופיל) 8 במאי 2010, 22:07:43
k1attack:I know what "I ate" is, but I wanted a passive form!Assuming you mean "I was eaten", the translation is "mi estis manĝita".
Is it possible to say "manĝis la muson", is it? (without a subject)It's not a usage I've ever seen and it sounds strange to my ear. You would expect there to be a subject and wonder why it's been left out. PMEG says that all but a few verbs -must- have a subject. I wouldn't put "manĝi" into that group of sensubjektaj verbs, so I would say no, it's not possible. But you could certainly say something like "la muson oni manĝis". And if you don't care about who the eater is you could perhaps just say "la muso manĝiĝis", which as an approximation of the passive may be sufficient for your purpose.
Frankouche (הצגת פרופיל) 8 במאי 2010, 22:19:43
k1attack:I know what "I ate" is, but I wanted a passive form!Speak active form to be better understood !
A lot of languages don't use passive forms as you would.
Speak the most simpliest as you can
Miland (הצגת פרופיל) 9 במאי 2010, 00:01:59
k1attack:I meant saying "The mouse was eaten" but with the active voice "?????? ate the mouse"One way might be La muso manĝitiĝis = La muso estis manĝita.
However I agree with Frankouche, that it is better to use standard, simple forms whenever possible. Here that would be La muso estis manĝita. The reason is that Esperanto is an international language, not a game.
k1attack (הצגת פרופיל) 9 במאי 2010, 09:12:17
Can "oni" be used if the subject isn't a person?
Can "io" be used in this case?
Miland (הצגת פרופיל) 9 במאי 2010, 12:55:24
k1attack:So can "oni" or "iu" can be used when the name of the subject isn't important?Iu means "someone" and is suitable if you want to say "Someone shot the dog", Iu pafis la hundon. Oni means "One" without specifying even the number - it could mean 'we', 'you' or 'they' according to context, as PMEG (section "Oni") shows. You could use it to emphasize that the dog was shot, Oni pafis la hundon. Only persons can shoot guns, so io would not be appropriate.