訊息: 65
語言: English
k1attack (顯示個人資料) 2010年5月8日下午9:34:26
I didn't know much about linguistics before, but know I do! Esperanto's perfect! It doesn't need any amendments!
Full stop! (I mean, exclamation mark!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps6JLKTrUOU
milupo (顯示個人資料) 2010年5月8日下午10:08:02
Starkman:No, on the contrary, it makes possible that "Vi portas porti unu tukon" expresses that you can bring one towel only because ''unu'' is used which emphasizes the fact that it is about one towel only.
milupo,
Are you saying that Esperanto itself, within the structure of the grammar, makes it impossible that "Vi povas porti unu tukon" only implies that you can bring one towel only and not more towels or other things?
Anyway, at least from an English native tongue perspective, I am finding the definite article VERY useful and necessary while studying Esperanto. And that is THE fact of THE matter (not a fact of any ol' manner, but the one and only fact of...ah, forget it. I lost my train of thought!)I didn't give my opinion about the use of the definite article because Huaskar I replied first to, didn't mention it. I find the definite article very useful as well because I am a German native speaker. The definite article is exact this thing which makes clear that the matter is about a certain mouse and not about another mouse. Unu muso does not express that there is a certain mouse but only that there is one mouse.
Well, there are 3 expressions in Esperanto:
la muso - this mouse here or there, a certain or known mouse
unu muso - any mouse but only one
muso - any mouse - also used to make clear that the matter is about a mouse and not about another animal, nor about a thing.
And I think all three are useful.
milupo (顯示個人資料) 2010年5月8日下午10:19:38
Roberto12:No, Huaskar wrote about "eine gewisse Maus" - that means "a certain mouse". Iu muso means, on the contrary, "any mouse".
For that I would say iu muso.
Huaskar referred to unu muso but the meaning he described is correct for la muso or, you can also say certa muso
tommjames (顯示個人資料) 2010年5月8日下午10:19:58
milupo:Unu muso does not express that there is a certain mouse but only that there is one mouse.Clearly you overlooked or ignored my previous post. "Unu" is not limited to a numeral, and can indeed be used to give certain identity and personage to substantives. If you take a look at this page you will see how. I suggest you give it a read.
unu muso - any mouse but only one
Roberto12 (顯示個人資料) 2010年5月9日上午8:32:25
milupo:Here's the full enumeration as I understand it:Roberto12:No, Huaskar wrote about "eine gewisse Maus" - that means "a certain mouse". Iu muso means, on the contrary, "any mouse".
For that I would say iu muso.
Huaskar referred to unu muso but the meaning he described is correct for la muso or, you can also say certa muso
Muso = a mouse
La muso = the mouse
Kiu muso = which mouse
Kiu ajn muso = whichever mouse
Tiu muso = that mouse
Ĉi-tiu muso = this mouse
Iu muso = a certain mouse
Iu ajn muso = any mouse
Ĉiu muso = each mouse
Ĉiuj musoj = all mice
Neniu muso = no mouse
I find this fully satisfactory, and I can't see anything wrong in it.
Roberto12 (顯示個人資料) 2010年5月9日上午8:37:58
黄鸡蛋:Interesting; I haven't seen "ajna" before. Revo gives these translations:milupo:Iu muso should mean "some mouse", while "any mouse" ought to be iu ajn muso or ajna muso, I think.Roberto12:No, Huaskar wrote about "eine gewisse Maus" - that means "a certain mouse". Iu muso means, on the contrary, "any mouse".
For that I would say iu muso.
Huaskar referred to unu muso but the meaning he described is correct for la muso or, you can also say certa muso
any, at all; any kind of; any, arbitrary.So, if "ajna" is a bit vague, I'd prefer "iu ajn" in the present context.
tommjames (顯示個人資料) 2010年5月9日上午9:40:47
Roberto12:Iu muso = a certain mouseNo, "iu muso" means "some mouse", that is, neither the speaker nor listener knows or cares which particular mouse it is. To describe something as "certain" you would need this knowledge. From PMEG:
PMEG:Iu montras, ke la identeco de la priparolata individuo estas nekonata aŭ neklara, aŭ ke la identeco ne estas grava.If you wanted to indicate certainty you would say "unu muso", if the mouse is known to you as the speaker. If you wanted to show it's known to both the speaker and the listener you could say "certa muso".
Iu shows that the identity of the individual being discussed is not known, or is unclear, or that the identity is unimportant.
ceigered (顯示個人資料) 2010年5月9日下午12:28:59
tommjames:Why do people think any languages are exempt from change and arbitrary critique? (I don't agree with the original proposal, but just because you also don't agree doesn't mean you should just shut down to any proposal of change full stop. Imagine if we applied such a train of thought to the legal system of years gone by:darkweasel:Why do people keep proposing changes to a living language?+1
A) "Let's let axe murderers off with a slap on the bottom!"
B) "No, that's a terrible idea!"
A) "Let's make it so shooting your neighbour is ok if they shot your dog!"
B) "That's it, I've had enough. Why do people continue to propose changes to a living and functional system of law?"
C) "Let's outlaw the death penalty for petty theft!"
B) "Nup, sorry, no changes."
Now I'm not saying let's change the :::: out of Esperanto. On the flip side there are proposals that would totally change Esperanto into another language only bearing the same name. This is somewhat naïve because even if you do end up with a new language with the same name, it's not like the speakers of the previous language suddenly convert and that "old Esperanto" simply ceases to be. But at the moment I'm starting to sense the neutrality that Esperanto claims to have in its speaker base slowly slipping, with people becoming more and more reactionary about these kinds of things.
tommjames (顯示個人資料) 2010年5月9日下午1:12:30
ceigered:Forgetting for a moment that it isn't even possible to "get rid" of the definite article in Esperanto because it is enshrined in the Fundamento and ingrained in the corpus of Esperanto literature and tradition (effectively making such a proposal a complete non-starter right from the outset, and hence not even worth thinking about), if someone proposed to get rid of the word "the" from English you wouldn't think they were being naive, you'd think they were being silly. Similarly if someone quickly rejected such a proposal you wouldn't accuse them of being reactionary or closed off to all change. You would, presumably, consider that a naturally acceptable response.
Why then do you feel differently with regards to Esperanto? Esperanto is not a proposal, it is a fully formed, mature and "living" language. All I ask is that people treat it as such. Surely that's not unreasonable?