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translating the English passive into Esperanto...

fra ninjaaron_0,2010 5 20

Meldinger: 6

Språk: English

ninjaaron_0 (Å vise profilen) 2010 5 20 15:54:23

I should start this thread off by saying that this is my first post, and I really don't know Esperanto other than a little peaking at it over the past couple of days. However, I do have a fair amount of... eh... "linguistic experience," so the grammar comes relatively quickly for me.

Anyway, I've been snooping about to find out about passive constructions. According to the Fundamento and a couple of other sources, it seems the correct form is something like, "la pico estas manĝita," or something like that.

On the other hand, I have also heard that forms like, "la pico manĝitas" have the same meaning. This form is perversely delightful.

Furthermore, I've heard it said that the passive is best left unused for the sake of simplicity, and sentences like "picon oni manĝis" are to be preferred. For me, this also raises the question as to whether or not one could simply leave out the unspecified subject, "picon manĝis"? In any case, do you think it would be understood if I used it?

Miland (Å vise profilen) 2010 5 20 16:30:34

ninjaaron_0: whether or not one could simply leave out the unspecified subject, "picon manĝis"? In any case, do you think it would be understood if I used it?
If you leave out the subject you are liable to be misunderstood. I would include Oni, or say La pico estas manĝita, if all you want to say is that the pizza has been eaten.

tommjames (Å vise profilen) 2010 5 20 17:04:17

ninjaaron_0:On the other hand, I have also heard that forms like, "la pico manĝitas" have the same meaning. This form is perversely delightful.
I like the shortened forms too, however it is worth noting that these forms are fairly uncommon and so using them would sound a bit odd. Additionally some people consider them to be "difficult" for some reason which I have as yet failed to establish, so I would suggest avoiding them in general.

ninjaaron_0 (Å vise profilen) 2010 5 20 17:26:57

That makes sense. The European languages have been working quite hard to get these sort of complex tense forms out of the language and replace them periphrastic constructions.

As a learner of language, I can say that it is a bit more difficult for me to recall, use and recognize the more inflected forms as apposed to the periphrastic ones...

But I don't reckon anyone would have a problem reading it. Maybe the short forms are more suited to a literary register and periphrastics are better for speaking...

Hmm... I sense fun in my future. lango.gif

erinja (Å vise profilen) 2010 5 20 19:52:26

The shortened forms are a relatively new development in Esperanto; you don't find them at all in old texts. In the modern day, there are a couple of them that are very common (-intus being particularly common) and some that are practically never seen (-ontis, perhaps)

It isn't wrong to use them but I'd consider it bad style, except in poetry etc.

horsto (Å vise profilen) 2010 5 20 20:13:39

ninjaaron_0:
Furthermore, I've heard it said that the passive is best left unused for the sake of simplicity, and sentences like "picon oni manĝis" are to be preferred.
That's true perhaps for beginners who don't know the passive. In normal language usage you can use both forms, as you like it.
ninjaaron_0:
For me, this also raises the question as to whether or not one could simply leave out the unspecified subject, "picon manĝis"? In any case, do you think it would be understood if I used it?
There are some verbs which don't have a subject, f.e. pluvi, but manĝi doesn't belong to them. You can express this with the -iĝ- suffix, which makes a transative verb intransitive: La pico manĝiĝis.

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