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Ĉi tiu aŭ tiu ĉi

від Reteos, 10 червня 2010 р.

Повідомлення: 13

Мова: English

Reteos (Переглянути профіль) 10 червня 2010 р. 17:49:15

La vortato says that when you type "this"
there is 'ĉi tiu' and 'tiu ĉi'
it also says 'ĉi tio' and the reverse,
thing is lately ive really been reading into my grammar and feel i have vastly improved my esperanto, problem is im confused with these and what makes them different?

is it just prefference like
la granda vortaro
or
la vortaro granda

Chainy (Переглянути профіль) 10 червня 2010 р. 18:10:02

You're right about 'cxi tiu' and 'tiu cxi' being the same. Makes no difference which way round. You use these when they precede a noun, eg. "Tiu cxi libro estas tre interesa" - This book is very interesting.

If you just want to say 'This is very interesting' (no noun here), then that would be "Tio cxi estas tre interesa" (or you could use 'Cxi tio' here).

erinja (Переглянути профіль) 10 червня 2010 р. 18:41:39

A note on the "granda vortaro" versus "vortaro granda" - yes, they are both equally correct. But you won't see them equally often. Why?

Esperanto has flexible word order but in many (not all) cases, there is a "most common choice". We do not vary the word order willy nilly (though some beginners do this, just to prove they can). And most people do not speak in the word order of their native language; native Spanish speakers speak Esperanto more or less the same as everyone else, noun/adjective word order included. I have found that someone who persistently puts the adjective after a noun is often a new beginner who had studied a noun-first language before, and assumes that because it is done this way in Spanish/Italian/Whatever, that it's done this way in Esperanto as well.

Esperantists vary word order from the standard to make a sentence flow better or to sound more elegant; or, they vary word order to add emphasis. "Vortaro granda" may flow better than "granda vortaro" in the context of whatever sentence it appears in, or perhaps the speaker is trying to emphasize the "granda" part by changing the order (a big one, not a small one; or, a REALLY big one!).

The order of "ĉi tiu" and "tiu ĉi" is the same issue. "Ĉi tiu" is the most common order but "tiu ĉi" is frequently seen as a variant form used to add emphasis or to make something sound nicer.

lavagulo (Переглянути профіль) 10 червня 2010 р. 19:49:33

When you are putting together a sentence in Esperanto, even if you aren't speaking it aloud, you are probably pronouncing the words to yourself. Ask yourself, when choosing ĉi tiu or tiu ĉi, which flows better with the following word, the -i or the -u. Which is easier to say (or sounds better to you) -- tiu ĉi vorto or ĉi tiu vorto? How about ĉi tiu arbo / tiu ĉi arbo? Say them to yourself and use the form which sounds slightly more pleasing or agreeable to your (inner) ear. Since they are both correct to use, this method is as good as any other.

Reteos (Переглянути профіль) 10 червня 2010 р. 22:44:03

Thanks everyone for clearing this up. i assumed it was like this however the vortaro isnt exactly clear on which is which.

Thanks again guys ridulo.gif

ceigered (Переглянути профіль) 11 червня 2010 р. 07:44:46

Reteos:Thanks everyone for clearing this up. i assumed it was like this however the vortaro isnt exactly clear on which is which.

Thanks again guys ridulo.gif
Maybe a note be put on that definition then (e.g. "ĉi can come before or after "tiu/tio")?

qwertz (Переглянути профіль) 11 червня 2010 р. 08:20:37

lavagulo:
Say them to yourself and use the form which sounds slightly more pleasing or agreeable to your (inner) ear. Since they are both correct to use, this method is as good as any other.
I assume I understand your viewpoint very well. But it's a aural and (some) haptic inner map standpoint. But, so, there are probably also some people out who make decicisons regarding this issue how it best visulaly looks like.

erinja (Переглянути профіль) 11 червня 2010 р. 15:48:02

Let me also underline that the lernu vortaro is in no way a substitute for a real paper dictionary. It is a learning aid, and it's meant to make things easier for you by providing "clickable" translations for words on this site, but it isn't meant to be a complete substitute for a well-written dictionary between your language and Esperanto.

The word order issue is best treated in a grammar guide.

ceigered (Переглянути профіль) 11 червня 2010 р. 16:01:21

erinja:Let me also underline that the lernu vortaro is in no way a substitute for a real paper dictionary. It is a learning aid, and it's meant to make things easier for you by providing "clickable" translations for words on this site, but it isn't meant to be a complete substitute for a well-written dictionary between your language and Esperanto.
I take that as an indirect "no"? rido.gif

erinja (Переглянути профіль) 11 червня 2010 р. 16:09:36

ceigered:
erinja:Let me also underline that the lernu vortaro is in no way a substitute for a real paper dictionary. It is a learning aid, and it's meant to make things easier for you by providing "clickable" translations for words on this site, but it isn't meant to be a complete substitute for a well-written dictionary between your language and Esperanto.
I take that as an indirect "no"? rido.gif
You have dictionary rights, don't you ceigered? You can certainly add that explanation if you want.

I'm not against adding explanations to the dictionary. I just don't want people to be under the (false) impression that the lernu dictionary is the best there is, or that the lernu dictionary should be providing a lot in the way of grammatical explanations.

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