المشاركات: 74
لغة: English
erinja (عرض الملف الشخصي) 14 فبراير، 2012 12:25:47 م
I'm not sure what you mean by your language level, ludomastro, but if you've completed the Ana Pana course, then you should be ok to go to NASK. They don't offer a course for the kind of beginner starting from zero. But if you wanted to go, you probably already have enough knowledge to do NASK's lowest course level. Honestly there's enough time before NASK that even if you only found out about Esperanto today, there would still be plenty of time to learn the language enough to participate in NASK's lowest level class.
NASK also offers scholarship money to those who can't afford the cost. Obviously if you don't have a week of time to devote to it, then no one can help you with that. But if it's about the money, there are resources to help you, if you just ask.
SES is much cheaper (it's in Slovakia, a very cheap country) but you'd have to pay for a plane ticket to Europe. And SES doesn't offer the same level as personalized attention.
NASK also offers scholarship money to those who can't afford the cost. Obviously if you don't have a week of time to devote to it, then no one can help you with that. But if it's about the money, there are resources to help you, if you just ask.
SES is much cheaper (it's in Slovakia, a very cheap country) but you'd have to pay for a plane ticket to Europe. And SES doesn't offer the same level as personalized attention.
ludomastro (عرض الملف الشخصي) 15 فبراير، 2012 7:56:40 ص
36lima:I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. I have a mortgage, children, etc and I think that the class, lodging, and food for the price is pretty reasonable.Somehow I missed that the shortened course is only USD 675. I agree that the cost is more feasible. Nonetheless, my wife informs me that she would rather go to another event at that cost. (She doesn't speak E-o.)
erinja:I'm not sure what you mean by your language level, ludomastro, but if you've completed the Ana Pana course, then you should be ok to go to NASK.Hmmm, interesting. I have completed "Ana Pana" but still feel like I can't say anything useful in E-o. Perhaps I was overestimating the required language level at NASK or perhaps I am simply feeling inadequate with my E-o abilities. By either means, I appreciate the information.
sudanglo (عرض الملف الشخصي) 15 فبراير، 2012 10:37:42 ص
Aren't we all missing the point in all this discussion of formal courses.
Because of Esperanto's design, even a smattering of the language would prove useful - far more than a rudimentary knowledge of a national language - provided many other people also had some basic knowledge of the language.
Zamenhof argued that because of the design of the language even someone with no knowledge at all of Esperanto could decode a letter with the aid of a 'Ŝlosilo'. No doubt, a bit of an exaggeration, but with some element of truth.
Because of Esperanto's design, even a smattering of the language would prove useful - far more than a rudimentary knowledge of a national language - provided many other people also had some basic knowledge of the language.
Zamenhof argued that because of the design of the language even someone with no knowledge at all of Esperanto could decode a letter with the aid of a 'Ŝlosilo'. No doubt, a bit of an exaggeration, but with some element of truth.
sudanglo (عرض الملف الشخصي) 15 فبراير، 2012 10:56:24 ص
Hmmm, interesting. I have completed "Ana Pana" but still feel like I can't say anything useful in E-oIs this feeling justified, Ludomastro?
Look, as a demonstration, I am going to translate a recent comment of yours into Esperanto. Seeing the translation (below) don't you feel that you could have done it yourself?
"Somehow I missed that the shortened course is only USD 675. I agree that the cost is more feasible. Nonetheless, my wife informs me that she would rather go to another event at that cost. (She doesn't speak E-o.)"
Iel, mi ne rimarkis, ke la mal-longigita kurso kostas nur $675. Mi konsentas, ke tiel la afero estas pli farebla. Tamen, mia edzino indikis, ke por tiu sumo ŝi preferus iri al alia aranĝo. (Ŝi ne parolas E-on)
ludomastro (عرض الملف الشخصي) 15 فبراير، 2012 8:13:19 م
@ sudanglo
Fair enough. I suppose that I could have done that translation with time, a dictionary and patience. However, as my experience learning Spanish by immersion taught me, dictionary use and conversation are pretty much mutually exclusive.
Nonetheless, I accept your point about a smattering of E-o being far more useful than a smattering of a national language.
I adhere to the concept that language is adquired in four phases that overlap to some degree: reading comprehension, speech comprehension, writting ability and speaking ability. I would argue that speech comprehension and writting ability tend to be built at roughly the same time.
I find that I can read and gain a top level understanding of most topics in the E-o forums; however, I would not call it full comprehension. At present, my speech comprehension is limited to listening to muziko and watching the occasional E-o videos on the internet. My writting ability is improving, thanks to another user here on lernu.net trading private messages with me.
Probably more of an answer than you wanted/needed but ... there it is.
Fair enough. I suppose that I could have done that translation with time, a dictionary and patience. However, as my experience learning Spanish by immersion taught me, dictionary use and conversation are pretty much mutually exclusive.
Nonetheless, I accept your point about a smattering of E-o being far more useful than a smattering of a national language.
I adhere to the concept that language is adquired in four phases that overlap to some degree: reading comprehension, speech comprehension, writting ability and speaking ability. I would argue that speech comprehension and writting ability tend to be built at roughly the same time.
I find that I can read and gain a top level understanding of most topics in the E-o forums; however, I would not call it full comprehension. At present, my speech comprehension is limited to listening to muziko and watching the occasional E-o videos on the internet. My writting ability is improving, thanks to another user here on lernu.net trading private messages with me.
Probably more of an answer than you wanted/needed but ... there it is.
darkweasel (عرض الملف الشخصي) 15 فبراير، 2012 8:33:03 م
ludomastro:I would argue that speech comprehension and writting ability tend to be built at roughly the same time.I would say this depends very much on how you learn the language - if you learn it through the Internet, without many listening comprehension exercises, your writing ability will be built much earlier. That was the case with me.
pdenisowski (عرض الملف الشخصي) 15 فبراير، 2012 10:03:23 م
ludomastro:Dictionary use and conversation are pretty much mutually exclusive.Couldn't agree more.
I would argue that speech comprehension and writting ability tend to be built at roughly the same time.There are a number of languages in which my passive knowledge is very good (i.e. I can understand pretty much everything I hear and/or read) but which I cannot actively use (speaking or writing).
I've also seen this in the case of some children who grow up in a multilingual home : they understand everything they hear, they may even speak it to some extent when younger, but lack of formal education, reading, or outside exposure prevents them from ever developing true active proficiency in that language.
At present, my speech comprehension is limited to listening to muziko and watching the occasional E-o videos on the internet.I suffered from this issue when I started learning Esperanto in the 1980s (i.e. before the Internet). Podcasting is a godsend in terms of acquiring listening ability in Esperanto : Radio Verda would be a good place to start. Their earlier episodes (say, before about #160) have a lot of chit-chat (babilado) between Arono and Karlina that's easy to understand and fun to listen to.
Amike,
Paul
sudanglo (عرض الملف الشخصي) 15 فبراير، 2012 10:17:11 م
I woud have thought that the order of acquistion would be legi, skribi, paroli, aŭde kompreni.
It's a question of processing time.
In reading you can take your time, as you can in writing, but it is easier to recognize words than to find the words you need.
In speaking you also have control of the speed (and can choose to say things simply). But the patience of your interlocutor puts a limit on the slowness of production.
The most challenging case is aural comprehension since this may require very rapid processing and you have no control over the sentence structures or vocabulary used.
It's a question of processing time.
In reading you can take your time, as you can in writing, but it is easier to recognize words than to find the words you need.
In speaking you also have control of the speed (and can choose to say things simply). But the patience of your interlocutor puts a limit on the slowness of production.
The most challenging case is aural comprehension since this may require very rapid processing and you have no control over the sentence structures or vocabulary used.
pdenisowski (عرض الملف الشخصي) 15 فبراير، 2012 11:25:26 م
sudanglo:I woud have thought that the order of acquistion would be legi, skribi, paroli, aŭde kompreni.I think it's not nearly that simple.
It's a question of processing time.
In reading you can take your time, as you can in writing, but it is easier to recognize words than to find the words you need.In reading you're typically exposed to a far greater number of words and far more complex patterns than you would ever hear in speech.
Similarly writing often requires a wider vocabulary and more complex grammatical structures. You also need to be much more precise : small errors may be overlooked in speech but stand out more strongly when they are read.
You're also assuming a writing system that's relatively easy to decode : I doubt many people read and write Chinese or Japanese better than they speak it. [I've worked as a professional Japanese-English translator and was the originator of the url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CEDICT]CEDICT[/url] Chinese-English dictionary, so I have some experience in this field]
In speaking you also have control of the speed (and can choose to say things simply). But the patience of your interlocutor puts a limit on the slowness of production.Pronunciation is also a factor : if your pronunciation is poor, it's difficult for people to understand you regardless of what kind of grammar and vocabulary you have.
There's also variation in the complexity of what you need to say. I could go around saying like "This is a cat" all day, but if I need to (quickly) say something like "I have a tight feeling in my chest and my left arm is numb", that would be quite a challenge for many language learners.
The most challenging case is aural comprehension since this may require very rapid processing and you have no control over the sentence structures or vocabulary used.Again, this is a function of exposure. I can understand everyday conversation extremely well in some languages but have trouble with more complex topics. On the other hand, I can understand academic or technical discussions very well in another language but am completely lost listening to casual banter between native speakers.
I would agree that slang, regionalisms, speaker ideosyncracies, etc. can make understanding spoken language challenging, but there's also a feedback mechanism in conversation that doesn't exist in writing : I can ask a speaker to slow down, repeat, speak more simply, etc. -- i.e. they can adjust their speaking to suit my ability. A book can't do that.
Amike,
Paul
ludomastro (عرض الملف الشخصي) 16 فبراير، 2012 8:39:16 ص
sudanglo:I woud have thought that the order of acquistion would be legi, skribi, paroli, aŭde kompreni.You logic seems sound and, in a vacuum, I would be inclined to agree; however, in my own experience, it didn't work that way. In fact, it didn't work that way for any of the people who traveled to Peru with me.
Reading comprehension seems to be built first as you have to start somewhere and a textbook is where most people start. Speech comprehension follows as you learn to catch enough of what is being said to follow the conversation. I still struggled at times but was able to follow what was being said more often than not.
Writing ability follows as you have time to think through what you need to say and how to properly parse it. Finally speaking ability grows as you grow more confident that you have the ability to snatch the "right" word from your brain.
After one year, it wasn't really a struggle to find the "right" word any more. However, it took another year before I started to really understand humor.
Other people may experience it differently, but that's what my experience brought.