Messaggi: 12
Lingua: English
philodice (Mostra il profilo) 31 agosto 2010 13:55:23
I go over the lessons and I still have to guess half the time what the parts of my sentences are called in order to end them properly.
Not that I'm complaining too bitterly. After I had a stroke in college, my grammar error rate in German shot up to %80 wrong and I failed the class. I can only speak and write English correctly because of endless memorization drills. It was almost as difficult for me to relearn English as if I were not a native. I may never be able to properly speak any foreign language because my brain won't remember how to structure the sentences.
My error rate in Eo is already far lower than I expected, mostly if I am tired or not paying attention. It is my hope that the regular structures will give me back the multilingual ability I once had.
I am used to failure. I just don't like it.
If you asked me to name all the parts of an English sentence, I would probably ask you for headache medicine.
Hispanio (Mostra il profilo) 31 agosto 2010 14:59:20
I now can identify adjectives, adverbs, accusative functions, and so on with no difficulty
And that goes for any language I learnt/learn/will learn
erinja (Mostra il profilo) 31 agosto 2010 15:16:15
Therefore according to his system, we don't have nouns, adverbs, and adjectives, but o-words, e-words, and a-words. Bertilo uses these terms in the PMEG. Using terms like these may help you keep things straight, because you aren't having to first remember "nouns end in -o" and then "nouns behave this way"; it's all merged into one concept, "o-words behave this way".
You can find an Esperanto-language explanation of the terms here. Unfortunately it's in Esperanto only but you could certainly "anglicize" the terms for the purpose of thinking about them in English.
Therefore instead of "a-vorteca vorteto" you'd have a "a-wordish little word" (a short word that behaves like an a-word but doesn't actually end in -a)
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But back to the question you actually asked, I think that many people never learn grammar properly in the first place; they learn to speak simply through repetition and they often never learn the rules that underlie correct speech in their native language. They learn things through what "sounds right" or wrong, rather than knowing the logical basis underlying the correct choice of grammatical forms. Some people naturally find grammar easy, others find it hard. Brain damage from a stroke definitely wouldn't help, regardless.
Your best bet might be to try to learn Esperanto forms by rote rather than puzzling out sentences by grammatical rules; repetition might be a better way to get things into your head than logic, with the way your brain works post-stroke. If you haven't done it yet, the course "bildoj kaj demandoj" might be helpful for you.
tommjames (Mostra il profilo) 31 agosto 2010 15:41:09
erinja:You can find an Esperanto-language explanation of the terms here. Unfortunately it's in Esperanto only but you could certainly "anglicize" the terms for the purpose of thinking about them in English.Some time ago I had grand and naive plans to start a project to translate PMEG into English. The first thing I did was an initial attempt at a translation of the terminaro, the results of which can be seen here. Who knows, perhaps it might be useful and my work wasn't completely in vain.
Therefore instead of "a-vorteca vorteto" you'd have a "a-wordish little word" (a short word that behaves like an a-word but doesn't actually end in -a)
For PMEG's "vorteto" I had "wordlet", but I changed it to "particle". I guess either could work. I do wonder though if an English translation of PMEG might actually be better off sticking with traditional terminology.
darkweasel (Mostra il profilo) 31 agosto 2010 18:52:48
tommjames:I do wonder though if an English translation of PMEG might actually be better off sticking with traditional terminology.I don't think so. Traditional terminology is good enough at explaining classical Indo-European grammar, but Esperanto is not Indo-European, and the traditional terminology isn't 100% good for Esperanto.
sudanglo (Mostra il profilo) 31 agosto 2010 21:25:17
erinja (Mostra il profilo) 31 agosto 2010 23:31:31
FYI tommjames, I had considered making an English translation of the lernu detailed grammar. It's still a huge undertaking but it's much more manageable than translating the PMEG. Let me know if you'd be interested in working with me on a project like that.
philodice (Mostra il profilo) 01 settembre 2010 03:00:01
I have trouble naming things. Why did that one tiny part of my brain that names things and pieces of things suffer where everything else works?
On the one hand, being unable to quickly and accurately label people leaves me acting like everyone is my friend, because I cannot remember who isn't unless they have seriously wronged me. Guess that is stored in a different nerve ending.
I can't treat all parts of a sentence the same. Adverbs have not seriously wronged me, although I'm not really sure what they are half the time.
I like the page so far. Perhaps the fact it is all in Eo will help me work it out backwards. I do sometimes read informational articles starting at the back. I rebuilt a computer that way, following the deconstruction pictures in reverse.
ceigered (Mostra il profilo) 01 settembre 2010 07:44:09
philodice:I am used to failure. I just don't like it.If it makes you feel better everyone starts off this way when force feeding themselves grammar unless they get a good head start from childhood and are blessed with gradual learning - so, practically speaking in the modern world, everyone starts of getting headaches with grammar learning
If you asked me to name all the parts of an English sentence, I would probably ask you for headache medicine.
.Just sticking to it no matter how torturous (actually, if it physically does result in a headache, bail for the meantime), but taking it in gradual, not so rushed steps is a good form of practice, because ultimately, just as we learn anything, we learn most effectively when we're chilled and relaxed. And you've clearly done extremely well seeing your poetry despite I'm guessing only having started esperanto recently, and such a mammoth effort is perfectly rewardable with mental rest I reckon
(as for the stroke, I can't fathom what it's like with that as a variable, but I imagine that as long as you tip-toe around any possible headaches or mental strain that you mentioned things should be good. After all, the mind gradually adapts and restructures itself to cope if something's not working).
tommjames (Mostra il profilo) 01 settembre 2010 09:29:39
philodice:I think it is back to the pictures and questions for me. Pictures work best. Descriptions, colors, pictures, and nicknames work well. I have trouble naming things.There are Esperanto picture books you can get hold of if you find learning vocab easier that way. One book that springs to mind is Mil Unuaj Vortoj, which is aimed at adult beginners and children. I did briefly have a copy but I lent it to a friend and haven't seen it since, but from what I remember it was pretty useful.
@Erinja, I had some discussion with Bertilo and he did mention a translation of La Detala Gramatiko might be a better bet, which I agree with. Could be an interesting project; I'll drop you a line shortly about that.