پستها: 58
زبان: English
LyzTyphone (نمایش مشخصات) 4 سپتامبر 2010، 4:21:04
It's true that we have 可口可樂 (KeKo KeLo, I guess you can now guess what that is). Our Big Mac has been called 麥香堡 (Mai Siang Bao. Er, a loose translation is Mac Tasty Burger, I guess.)until very recently. They changed it finally to 大麥克 (大 for Big, and 麥克 for Mac, though it sounds more like Mike). Not sure why.
I still prefer "senalkoholaĵo" or "Senalkohola Trinkaĵo", though I know they kind of sound like they will appear on a restaurant menu instead of a casual conversation.
Evildela (نمایش مشخصات) 4 سپتامبر 2010، 8:16:19
sudanglo (نمایش مشخصات) 4 سپتامبر 2010، 10:49:55
We have two types here, 'caustic soda' for clearing drains, and a milder 'washing soda' which probably nobody use much nowadays because of modern detergents. (Neither would you want to drink.)
It is these two meanings which are catalogued in PIV2005 under 'sodo'.
If it is felt that a neologism is required it would be better therefore to say 'sodao', which is redolent of 'kolao' for a cola drink. rather than 'sodo'.
However the whole problem is interesting beyond the actual solution.
In a national language it would be relatively simple to establish the appropriate term. A native speaker could be asked, or the literature of manufacturers or shops could be consulted, or simply looking it up in a bilingual dictionary may suffice.
But Esperanto is different. Appeal to usage will sometimes work, but it is always possibly for a competing expression to take over if it is felt neater or more logical.
What makes Esperanto easier (or sometimes more demanding) at an advanced level is its readiness not to be hide-bound by idiom.
When learning a national language, the student may well produce expressions that the language seems to permit, only to be told 'No don't say that, you have to say ...'.
This can happen in Esperanto but not very often. So if the komencanto were to say 'studejo' for University by analogy with 'lernejo' for School he would probably provoke a reaction.
When Esperantists in their propaganda make much of the easiness of Esperanto, they tend not to be thinking of this feature of the language.
However, for foreign learners of English (whose grammar is relatively simple compared to Continental languages) the idiomatic load of English is a major source of difficulty.
Miland (نمایش مشخصات) 4 سپتامبر 2010، 16:55:17
sudanglo:If it is felt that a neologism is required it would be better therefore to say 'sodao', which is redolent of 'kolao' for a cola drink. rather than 'sodo'..Not bad!
erinja (نمایش مشخصات) 4 سپتامبر 2010، 20:26:21
Besides which, is the fact that not everyone calls it soda. Soda isn't a very international word; if you look at a list of international names for these kinds of drinks, the most common terms that come up are something similar to "gas drink"
sudanglo (نمایش مشخصات) 5 سپتامبر 2010، 12:27:40
What was in the gadget may have been a solution of sodium bicarbonate - ie baking soda - or just carbon dioxide dissolved under pressure.
The soda in whisky and soda could certainly be translated by 'sod-akvo' and in a 1932 book 'La nekonata konato', that I have in my library, this term is used (also listed in PIV2005).
But on the subject of fizzy drinks, there is one (so it seems to me) unresolved problem - and that is how to say 'can' or 'tin' in a neat way. I find 'lad-skatolo' a monstrosity.
How would you say a 'can of coke' or a 'tin of baked beans'?
For can-opener or tin opener you can just ay 'elladigilo'.
Evildela (نمایش مشخصات) 5 سپتامبر 2010، 12:39:54
sudanglo:How would you say a 'can of coke' or a 'tin of baked beans'?Why not just use a word like BOTELETO for can, do really need a separate word? Sure it’s not exactly describing the can in the fullest sense, but we use words like PLUMO to describe both a pen and a feather.
For can-opener or tin opener you can just ay 'elladigilo'.
ceigered (نمایش مشخصات) 5 سپتامبر 2010، 12:59:01
*I use -jo here, simply as I don't know what the neuter diminuative suffix is in EO.
I mean, the English "can" came from the older word "canne", which meant a glass/cup/container, and we're not having nightmares now about how a glass made out of tin works are we?
(having said that, no doubt tonight I'll be in a philosophical mess trying to figure out how something can be made out of tin and be called a glass at the same time). erinja (نمایش مشخصات) 5 سپتامبر 2010، 15:24:33
According to Wells, you could also say simply "skatolo" (I normally mentally translate it as "box" but in fact its meaning is much more general in Esperanto, and it only means a container that can be opened and closed, out of any material). He also lists lado/ferlado, but I don't really like that one too much. It's an option though.
Donniedillon (نمایش مشخصات) 5 سپتامبر 2010، 15:28:50
sudanglo:How would you say a 'can of coke' or a 'tin of baked beans'?Wouldn't ujo work if this case? It is a small, clean, and simple word that easily gets the point across.
gastrinkaja ujo? faba ujo?