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Adding verbs Xas Yi -> XYas or YXas?

door Genjix, 18 september 2010

Berichten: 15

Taal: English

Genjix (Profiel tonen) 18 september 2010 01:48:14

Hey,

Saying volas praktiki started getting tiresome; today I added them:

Ĉu vi volpraktikas esperanton?

Someone mentioned that praktikvolas was more correct. Now thinking about it I'm not so sure. Why would it be?

Thanks

Mustelvulpo (Profiel tonen) 18 september 2010 04:06:36

"Ĉu vi volas praktiki Esperanton?" is by far the clearest and most concise way of expressing this idea. It seems to me that compounding verbs in this manner would lead more to confusion than communication.

In general, compounding is mostly applied to nouns and indicates a prepositional relationship between them. For example- jarcento=cento da jaroj, manĝoĉambro=ĉambro por manĝoj, sunbrilo=brilo de la suno.

I think that in general compounding of verbs in this manner should be avoided but, if you insist on doing it, praktikvoli (volo de/pri praktiki)is the choice for the idea that the sentence expresses. (Similar to the commonly used scivoli= volo de/pri scii.) Volkpraktiki (praktiko de voli) would give the idea of "to practice wishing." But, in the interest of clarity and understanding, by far, by miles, the best way to express this is "volas praktiki." I'd say avoid using compound verbs aside from the few that are already in common use.

Genjix (Profiel tonen) 18 september 2010 14:29:05

Good. Thanks for the clarification.

ceigered (Profiel tonen) 18 september 2010 15:04:28

As Mustelvulpo said, generally, when combining words, you do it in the same order that you have an adjective and noun in English, so let's say we have "bug man", we know it's a man who's got bug like attributes like some sort of superhero, where as "man bug" is probably from a horror movie.

In Esperanto the same difference applies with making words, in that the first bit describes the second bit. So "praktikvoli" means that "praktik" describes what sort of volition or want it's meant to be, where as in "volpraktiki", "vol" describes what sort of practice is being undertaken.

So basically, the first components act as describers, and the later components act as the described root of the word. This is probably why in EO the default practice is to put adjectives in front of nouns unlike the Latin languages which it looks so much like, because then it'd be super confusing lango.gif.

(also, tl;dr and not so important, but if you're saying you want to put something into practice, you say "praktiki", but if you want to practice something so that it gets better and improves, I believe "ekzerci (must have an object!)" works better and is more precise, e.g. "Mi volas ekzerci mian Esperanton" = "Mi volas praktiki mian Esperanton por ke mi lertiĝas/por lertigi min pri Esperanto" (lerta = skilful, dextrous, lertiĝi = become skilful, dextrous, lertigi = make skilful, dextrous)

Genjix (Profiel tonen) 18 september 2010 22:00:58

ha thanks! I didn't know ekzerci was better!

erinja (Profiel tonen) 19 september 2010 03:28:50

lertigi ĝin = to make the language Esperanto skilful

So no, you would NOT say "lertigi ĝin". You would say "lertigi min pri Esperanto" (to make myself skilful regarding Esperanto)

ceigered (Profiel tonen) 19 september 2010 10:52:40

erinja:lertigi ĝin = to make the language Esperanto skilful

So no, you would NOT say "lertigi ĝin". You would say "lertigi min pri Esperanto" (to make myself skilful regarding Esperanto)
I thought that were the case. Thanks Erinja, I was shuddering when I wrote "lertigi ĝin" because I felt like the relationship was terribly wrong okulumo.gif I shall make edits.

I must ask though, could it be used in the sense that "my esperanto is skilful/dexterous" = "my esperanto has skills associated with it/is more fluid"?

tommjames (Profiel tonen) 19 september 2010 12:00:38

ceigered:por ke mi lertiĝas
If you were going to say it that way it should really be "por ke mi lertiĝu".

erinja (Profiel tonen) 19 september 2010 12:48:30

Ceigered, if you said "mia esperanto estas lerta", it would indeed mean that the language itself is skilful, not that you are skilful regarding the language.

Obviously it doesn't make that much sense so we wouldn't say it that way.

I would personally say "Mi lerte parolas Esperanton".

ceigered (Profiel tonen) 19 september 2010 13:08:08

erinja:Ceigered, if you said "mia esperanto estas lerta", it would indeed mean that the language itself is skilful, not that you are skilful regarding the language.

Obviously it doesn't make that much sense so we wouldn't say it that way.

I would personally say "Mi lerte parolas Esperanton".
Dankon, that indeed doesn't make much sense if lerta works that way.

tommjames:If you were going to say it that way it should really be "por ke mi lertiĝu"
Blimey, that is extremely useful! I was wondering how I could better word that and you've gone and done my mental work for me lango.gif. Indeed, "por ke mi lertiĝas" sounds strange, and I was tempted to use "por ke mi lertiĝus". How does that stand alongside lertiĝu by the way? Would -us be better used if the overall mood is hypothetical (e.g. mi ekzercus mian Esperanton por ke mi lertiĝus pri ĝi), or would lertiĝu be the only correct choice in this situation, e.g. mi ekzercus mian Esperanton por ke mi lertiĝu pri ĝi?

Dankon 'mikojn.

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