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Advanced Tests.

od sudanglo, 10. oktober 2010

Sporočila: 35

Jezik: English

ceigered (Prikaži profil) 11. oktober 2010 22:17:45

Ultimately the concept of a high-level exam seems strange to Esperanto, given the lack of a native-speaker culture. That is, there's not much to expect an Esperanto learner to achieve other than learn the rules right. There's no human benchmark to compare them to, other than the diverse range of other Esperantists.

So in a way we have to then construct the idea of a "perfect Esperanto speaker". So, nominations/criteria? lango.gif

I'm not really on either side of the fence here, but it seems to me that one major issue for both sides of the argument is that tests are part of a rigid system of examination, and being able to gauge ones abilities. On the other hand, Esperanto runs out of critical rigidity after a while by nature of its internationality.

Miland (Prikaži profil) 11. oktober 2010 22:29:36

ceigered:..we have to then construct the idea of a "perfect Esperanto speaker". So, nominations/criteria?
You of course, who else? BTW when you become a VIP, remember me. rido.gif

Seriously, Esperanto was not meant to become the language of a "new elite" to replace the English-speaking one. But if we are to have examinations at different levels, IMO what we have now - the ILEI, and European frameworks - should be good for all foreseeable practical purposes.

sudanglo (Prikaži profil) 12. oktober 2010 10:07:51

Well said Ceiger, and I might even try to write an advanced one, Erinja, when my ideas are clearer about what should go into it.

It is absolutely clear that the KER gradings are based on some characteristics of the 'natural' languages. Things that are quite difficult for alilingvaj learners of national languages may in the case of Esperanto be quite childishly simple.

Then again there are issues concerning usage at an advanced level which may be quite defined in the national languages, but where there is room for argument in the case of Esperanto.

Moreover, it is easy to imagine advanced texts that would be quite simple to read, if in Esperanto, by someone who is still only at an early stage of learning Esperanto and hesitant in speech.

For an English speaker so many of the head words in PIV are instantly recognizable or can be related to a cognate form.

I don't know if you have read the polemic tract 'Ĉu nur-angla Eŭropo?' but it would certainly be considered an advanced text in a national language, but presents few problems for the 'mez-klera' Esperantist.

Interestingly, on the usefulness of the Common European Framework for classifying learner skills, the opinion of the Director of Studies of a English language school (for foreigners) in my area is instructive.

I happened to meet him by chance in the street and raised the subject with him. His response - very few of the students who came to the school would fit neatly into the KER categories. He had actually read some weighty tome detailing the specifications and dismissed it as the speculative product of a bunch of academics.

Anyway, it is clear that any criteria for grading language skills should be subject to empirical assessment and capable of practical application.

I think it's great from a propaganda view that we have KER exams for Esperanto. For those who reject Esperanto as being a real language, we can point to existence of the exams and the translation of criteria.

But the KER criteria do not answer the question as to what is an appropriate ordering of difficulty for Esperanto.

3rdblade (Prikaži profil) 12. oktober 2010 10:30:28

Miland:
ceigered:..we have to then construct the idea of a "perfect Esperanto speaker". So, nominations/criteria?
You of course, who else? BTW when you become a VIP, remember me. rido.gif
Oh man, does this mean 'mi penis farti bone' is gonna be on the test? okulumo.gif

Miland (Prikaži profil) 12. oktober 2010 10:39:53

The fact that examinations have been successfully designed and run by UEA, based on the KER criteria, proves that they are capable of practical application. There are degrees of proficiency, A B and C, each subdivided. These make a good collective and practical definition in performing tasks connected with the use of language, and are therefore related directly to the purpose of Esperanto as an international language.
An examination of this kind, based on practical proficiency (and the same applies to the ILEI examinations) better serves the movement, in my view, than one based on theoretical ideas of difficulty.

Miland (Prikaži profil) 12. oktober 2010 10:46:39

3rdblade:
Miland:
ceigered:..we have to then construct the idea of a "perfect Esperanto speaker". So, nominations/criteria?
You of course, who else? BTW when you become a VIP, remember me. rido.gif
Oh man, does this mean 'mi penis farti bone' is gonna be on the test? okulumo.gif
Farti pene sounds too tough for me, I'll leave that to potential Akademianoj. Then I can get back to something less demanding like watching Tropical Heat or reading a mystery novel* rido.gif

* e.g. I recommend Earl Derr Biggers' The Dollar Chasers, included in the anthology Ellery Queen's Aces of Mystery. It should be available second hand.

ceigered (Prikaži profil) 12. oktober 2010 11:38:09

3rdblade:
Miland:
ceigered:..we have to then construct the idea of a "perfect Esperanto speaker". So, nominations/criteria?
You of course, who else? BTW when you become a VIP, remember me. rido.gif
Oh man, does this mean 'mi penis farti bone' is gonna be on the test? okulumo.gif
HAHAHA! rido.gif Well, that could act as a challenge to some English speakers, who struggle with looking past the sheer immaturity of it (myself), and don't like being tripped up with past tense notions of verbs that are normally used in present tense. I mean, what does that phrase even translate to? "I tried to fare well"?

It totally does nothing to help fight against the idea that Esperanto isn't suitable for application in law etc though rido.gif

erinja (Prikaži profil) 12. oktober 2010 19:53:22

It seems like everything you've said so far supports the idea that Esperanto just isn't as hard as some other languages. Why purposely make something more difficult than it really is, just to kick someone's butt with an exam? The point of advanced-level exams in national languages is to prove your proficiency in the language, that you could perhaps write an intellectual essay in that language. If you can do the same tasks in Esperanto, having spent much less time studying it, why should that not be construed as a high level? And if "Ĉu nur-angla eŭropo" represents a text that would be difficult in other languages but easy to understand in Esperanto, doesn't that prove that there is little point to making an esperanto exam that is intentionally extremely difficult - more difficult than everyday Esperanto, more difficult than literary Esperanto, more difficult than Esperanto technical writing? Just what are we trying to prove with this hypothetical exam that is difficult even for an experienced speaker?

For difficult texts, I suppose that La infana raso could be used as an example of a text that isn't too easy. But I think that aside from the occasional word that isn't too common, an experienced Esperantist could understand it without much problem. Poetry is always harder than prose, anyway.

Donniedillon (Prikaži profil) 12. oktober 2010 21:05:37

It seems strange to me to talk about making difficult Esperanto proficiency tests. One of the things that drew me to Esperanto was the fact that one could develop proficiency relatively easily so that it is easily accessible for everyone. Is developing difficult tests not counter to these ideas?

sudanglo (Prikaži profil) 14. oktober 2010 13:33:56

I found a specimen for the written part of the C1 level of the KER exams in Esperanto.

View it here

Is it advanced? Are the times alloted for the different parts generous?

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