Mesaĝoj: 88
Lingvo: English
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-13 11:44:24
Here, another discussion on the same topic.
Now that it's been mentioned, I'd go for kioma horo estas too. I tend to hold a grudge against phrases in any language that say "what hour is it"*, but I feel from experience that "kioma horo estas" would win hands down in comprehensibility.
Kiomas to me means "How much/many is it?", which I can see working, but I think it needs context, e.g. if you're talking 'bout money I'd say "kiomas horo"
.*Ironically, while I don't like seeing "what hour is it" because I feel sorry for the minutes, "horo" comes from the Latino-Hellenic "hora", which actually had more meanings than simply "hour", and meant "hour", "time", "period of time", etc. "Tempus" (and therefore 'tempo') seems to mean "span of time" instead, which trapped me good.
(Further investigation reveals that even though "tempus" and "time" look similar, they are completely unrelated - "tempus" comes from the Indo-European root "ten-", which means "stretch, pull, span", while "time" comes from the Indo-European root "di-" which meant "time". This should have been more clear to me since Latin t- does not equal Germanic t-, but alas I'll pass these words on so others don't fall in the same trap!)
Chainy (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-13 11:53:13
Ankaŭ ekzistas la slanga esprimo kiomas? = “kioma horo estas?” Oni ne uzu ĝin en serioza kunteksto.Which translates as: There's also the slang expression 'kiomas?' = 'kioma horo estas?'. One should not use it in a serious context.
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-13 12:07:19
Chainy (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-13 12:27:53
sudanglo:To test 'kiomas': in an group of Esperantists, tap your bare wrist and say 'Kiomas' - see what response you get.How about just tapping your bare wrist and then making the relevant facial expression? Forget about any Esperanto word! And then see what response you get.
mihxil (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-13 12:30:10
Chainy: But, maybe that's just a personal preference, and anyway the 'la' doesn't really seem necessary...I think I put the 'la' in the question because you expect one in the answer too:
"-La kioma horo estas?"
"-La naŭa horo estas."
(or of course "naŭas"
)Just seems nicely symmetrical to me, and I think it makes sense because the 'hour' is something definite.
Chainy (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-13 12:33:03
I just have a preferance for "Kioma horo estas?". I like to keep things simple and clear.
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-13 12:45:45
Regarding "kiomas", I wouldn't use it in formal writing but I think it's fine in an informal context. Assuming that you don't say it in the middle of buying something, I don't think you could possibly confuse it for anything but "What time is it?"
"What time is it?" is a question that we ask people randomly, in the middle of a conversation about something else. We do not ask "How much is it?" out of the blue.
mihxil (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-13 13:44:33
erinja:We never say "la kioma..." to ask the hour. Questions and answers aren't always grammatically "symmetrical"I doubt this is 'never' said. I think I might say it. Thought this may be because of infuence of my own language in which a word like 'kioma' actually exists (though not for hours), and is normally used with a definite article indeed.
Anyway 'we never say things like this' is hardly an argument. It's not one I care for at least. You must come with something like 'kioma horo is not something definite, so one should't use the article'. But I doubt it isn't something definite.
Since Esperanto is not a natural language, anybody's decision is at good as another's, as long as everything follows the rules of grammar and logic (which are for 'la' quite hard, by the way. It would perhaps have been better if it didn't exist at all). This to me is actually one of the appealing things of esperanto.
Chainy (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-13 15:59:50
mihxil:I'm not sure I can think of a precise explanation of why it sounds a bit odd to say 'la' in "La kioma horo estas?", but then how about considering this:
Anyway 'we never say things like this' is hardly an argument. It's not one I care for at least. You must come with something like 'kioma horo is not something definite, so one should't use the article'. But I doubt it isn't something definite.
A: Kiu estas via libro?
B: La ruĝa libro estas mia.
- In the above, I don't think you'd say 'La kiu estas via libro?' even though you know that the answer will require the definite article. Maybe this is a bad example, but I couldn't think of anything else just now...
Chainy (Montri la profilon) 2010-oktobro-13 16:02:44
