Wpisy: 11
Język: English
angel32163 (Pokaż profil) 20 października 2010, 23:06:39
"Ĉu mi iam ajn estus riĉa?"
I'm trying to say "Will I ever be rich?"
I looked up the usage for "ajn", and in Wells, it states it is used after i- and ki- correlatives. But is "iam" correct in the above?
Just trying to wrap my brain around the use of the word "ajn", it seems to mean "any" or "at all", but am wondering if it can be used as I tried to above.
Chainy (Pokaż profil) 21 października 2010, 00:04:40
Ĉu mi iam ajn estus riĉa? = Would I ever be rich?
erinja (Pokaż profil) 21 października 2010, 01:56:51
The "ajn" adds extra emphasis. "Will I ever really be rich?", "Will I ever be at all rich?" etc.
Mi faros kion vi volas = I will do what you want (or whatever you want)
Mi faros kion ajn vi volas = I will do 'whatever at all' you want, anything you want, I'll do it, no matter what it is. "ajn" makes things more intense.
Venu iam! = Come sometime/anytime!
Venu iam ajn = Come anytime at all!
Chainy (Pokaż profil) 21 października 2010, 05:54:23
For example, do you agree with the following:
Mi ne vidas ion = I can't see anything. Here, perhaps 'ion' can easily mean 'anything' or 'something', depending on the context.
Mi ne vidas ion ajn = I can't see anything at all. (Here, the 'ajn' seems to have the effect of 'at all'. However, I think a lot of people use this when they mean just 'anything', which is probably not the correct way of thinking?)
Of course, you could use 'nenio':
Mi vidas nenion - I can see nothing.
Mi vidas nenion ajn - I can see nothing at all. (ok, so technically it's probably not necessary to emphasise 'nothing', but anyway...)
You might be wondering why I didn't write 'Mi ne povas vidi ion' - well I suppose that's fine, but it's just a habit I got from the slavonic languages, not to use 'povas' in there... And I think it works fine in Esperanto, too.
ceigered (Pokaż profil) 21 października 2010, 09:02:36
Once again, perhaps Australian English influence that's too deeply rooted in my brain for EO's system to take any effect.
Miland (Pokaż profil) 21 października 2010, 20:35:50
Chainy:Mi ne vidas ion.I wouldn't use this, as it means "I do not see something", which is not meaningful in English. It is not the same as "I do not see anything" (Mi ne vidas ion ajn) or "I see nothing" (Mi vidas nenion).
Rohan (Pokaż profil) 21 października 2010, 20:59:04
Miland:A sentence like 'Mi ne vidas ion' might be more acceptable in a context where the 'ion' is emphasised and plays a contrastive role, as in the following exchange:Chainy:Mi ne vidas ion.I wouldn't use this, as it means "I do not see something", which is not meaningful in English. It is not the same as "I do not see anything" (Mi ne vidas ion ajn) or "I see nothing" (Mi vidas nenion).
A: (Pointing to a table laden with sumptuous-looking food) Ĉu vi volas manĝi ion?
B: (Deciding to give in to the hunger pangs) Mi ne volas manĝi ion . Mi volas manĝi ĉion.
Christian (ciegered) might be able to do a better job of coming up with a convincing exchange of this sort.
Chainy (Pokaż profil) 21 października 2010, 21:28:44
Miland:Here are some examples of 'ion' taken from PMEG:Chainy:Mi ne vidas ion.I wouldn't use this, as it means "I do not see something", which is not meaningful in English. It is not the same as "I do not see anything" (Mi ne vidas ion ajn) or "I see nothing" (Mi vidas nenion).
Neniu ion sciis pri la maniero de ĝia pretigado.- I have a sneaky suspicion that we'd translate this sentence as 'Nobody knew anything about the manner of its preparation'. The fact that we say 'anything' here is just a certain peculiarity of English grammar - have you ever tried teaching 'anything/something' to non-natives? It's a little confusing. For example, in German you'd use the word 'etwas' which equates to the word 'something' or 'anything' depending on the context (and I think you can say the same for 'io' in Esperanto).
In the above sentence, if you say 'ion ajn' then the 'ajn' is just emphasising the fact that nobody knew absolutely anything at all. See PMEG on ajn
And another example taken from the PMEG page about 'ion':
Nur tiu ne eraras, kiu neniam ion faras.Again, I reckon we'd use the word 'anything' when translating the above sentence (Only he who never does anything makes no mistakes) - and this is despite the fact that there's no 'ajn' in the Esperanto!
ceigered (Pokaż profil) 22 października 2010, 01:11:49
Rohan:Nah, mine would just proceed with said malsatulo eating the entire world or something crazyMiland:A sentence like 'Mi ne vidas ion' might be more acceptable in a context where the 'ion' is emphasised and plays a contrastive role, as in the following exchange:Chainy:Mi ne vidas ion.I wouldn't use this, as it means "I do not see something", which is not meaningful in English. It is not the same as "I do not see anything" (Mi ne vidas ion ajn) or "I see nothing" (Mi vidas nenion).
A: (Pointing to a table laden with sumptuous-looking food) Ĉu vi volas manĝi ion?
B: (Deciding to give in to the hunger pangs) Mi ne volas manĝi ion . Mi volas manĝi ĉion.
Christian (ciegered) might be able to do a better job of coming up with a convincing exchange of this sort.
I am however getting this strange image from this "Mi ne vidas ion" and combining that with "Mi volas manĝi ĉion" to make
"MI VIDAS ĈION (AJN)!"
perhaps said by a di(abl)ulo.As for this discussion of "Mi ne vidas ion" etc happening behind this post, I still can't see "ajn" has having much important meaning that needs discussion other than slight emphasis. You see something or you don't
. (By nature of being "something", it can be anything or any portion of something).From that, "ajn" seems to be nothing more than asking for a definite emotional response, e.g.
"Ĉu vi certas ke estas nenio tie?"
"Jes, mi ja certas ke estas nenio ajn tie - ne eblas ke mi eraras."
Because of that, I think the "Nur tiu ne eraras, kiu neniam ion faras" phrase could use the 'ajn' or not depending on how much a person believes in that statement.
If asked to be perfectly honest with myself, I'd probably say it sans "ajn" since I'm open to the possibility of something being perfect and still doing something (hypothetically).
But someone who thinks that it's impossible for anythign to do anything without any error may say "Nur tiu, kiu neniam ion ajn faras, ne eraras"...
erinja (Pokaż profil) 22 października 2010, 02:05:04
I'm past that now, of course, and I happily say "Mi ne volas manĝi ion" etc.
For some reason this discussion makes me recall the Latin word "nonnullus", which was similarly surprising to me when I studied Latin. It means "some" or "several", but it literally means "not none". When I first learned it, I thought, how weird, using "not none" to refer to some! But when I thought about it, it wasn't an illogical way to put it.