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The article "La"

de sublimestyle, 25 octobre 2010

Messages : 64

Langue: English

erinja (Voir le profil) 29 octobre 2010 13:14:42

Dictionaries often reflect not only the language as the writer would wish it to be, but also the spoken language. Wells may have changed this entry because no one was using "Regno" anymore in this context.

You could certainly e-mail him and find out. I once e-mailed him with a question about something and he replied a couple of days later.

Miland (Voir le profil) 29 octobre 2010 14:51:30

IMO reĝlando may be a neologismo created to reflect facts like Scottish devolution (seen especially sharply perhaps in the Al-Megrahi case), and the Queen being a figurehead for the most part. Also possibly that Elizabeth II is also Queen of Canada, Australia, NZ and a number of other places. However the last time a Governor-General dismissed a Prime Minister of a Commonwealth country (Australia, 1975) he was not rewarded with a commendation - I'll let ceigered fill us in on that one.

erinja (Voir le profil) 29 octobre 2010 17:30:40

I would never call "reĝlando" a neologism, if only due to the fact that it's not a new root, it's constructed from existing Esperanto roots.

And I doubt very much that the UK's changing political situation is a factor in the rise in use of reĝlando to refer to the UK. It may be as simple as the fact that not every Esperantist is familiar with the word "regno", and "reĝlando" is easy to devise (and understand) for anyone familiar with the words reĝ/ and land/.

I prefer "reĝlando" myself, since it is more specific than "regno" about the ruler of the country. Reĝlando (kingdom) fits nicely into the pattern of princlando (principality/princedom/princely state), duklando (duchy/dukedom), etc. All of those things could be referred to as "regno", but by using the -lando form, we are being a little more specific about what level of monarch rules this territory. Therefore, it makes perfect sense to speak of "Unuiĝinta Reĝlando" in the same breath that we speak of the "Andora Princlando" (Andorran Principality, or Principality of Andorra)

sudanglo (Voir le profil) 29 octobre 2010 22:15:18

You may be right Erinja. With rise of the internet there are so many more beginner Esperantists, who seeing the word Kingdom might suppose that it must be translated by some compound with reĝo and are unaware of the more stately word regno.

Incidentally, I believe that there are more than 1000 islands which make up the Unuiĝinta Regno, so even the lando element of the compound word is slightly suspect.

Perhaps here (in the two terms) we are seeing an example of the emergence of register in Esperanto.

Anyway, I have no objection to the lesser entities of Principalityy and Duchy being described as Princlando and Duklando.

Chainy (Voir le profil) 29 octobre 2010 22:49:20

sudanglo:Anyway, I have no objection to the lesser entities of Principalityy and Duchy being described as Princlando and Duklando.
I'm a little confused here. If Princlando and Duklando make sense, then what's wrong with Reĝlando?

In ReVo, you find the following translations into German:

regno = 'Reich' (empire, realm)
Reĝlando = Königreich (Kingdom, realm)

I suppose there's a lot of overlap between these. It's interesting that you never see 'Reĝregno', which would be a direct translation of Königreich.

I decided on Reĝlando, merely because this seemed to be listed by reputable sources (Wells, ReVo, PMEG etc)

Sudanglo and Miland, you both seem quite set on 'La Unuiĝinta Regno'. You seem to be saying that this used to be the accepted form. I have no idea about this, I've only been into Esperanto relatively recently! If this is true, it does seem a bit odd that people should change it. I wonder where the impetus for that would come from?!

Chainy (Voir le profil) 29 octobre 2010 22:53:18

sudanglo:You may be right Erinja. With rise of the internet there are so many more beginner Esperantists, who seeing the word Kingdom might suppose that it must be translated by some compound with reĝo and are unaware of the more stately word regno.
So, are you suggesting that Wells and co were duped into adopting Reĝlando by a bunch of beginners? Seems a rather unlikely scenario.

erinja (Voir le profil) 29 octobre 2010 23:00:43

"Lando" means country. Why would the presence of many islands make something less of a "lando"?

At any rate, I don't see reĝlando as being 'lower in register' than regno. I don't believe that all of the posh Esperantists say regno and all of the plebs say reĝlando. Usage changes with time. And I don't know for a fact that regno was *ever* more popular when referring to the UK. There seems to be a bias against "reĝlando" with some people, and I'm really not sure why, it's a perfectly good word. History texts in Esperanto, when talking about kingdoms, talk about "reĝlandoj". It's a more precise and appropriate word than the generic "regno".

Every single independent country on this planet is a "regno". Most countries aren't "reĝlandoj" (though the UK is)

Chainy (Voir le profil) 29 octobre 2010 23:52:40

erinja:"Lando" means country. Why would the presence of many islands make something less of a "lando"?
That was my thought, too.

erinja:At any rate, I don't see reĝlando as being 'lower in register' than regno. I don't believe that all of the posh Esperantists say regno and all of the plebs say reĝlando.
ridulo.gif

erinja:Every single independent country on this planet is a "regno". Most countries aren't "reĝlandoj" (though the UK is)
This seems to be a good point. After looking around a bit this is pretty much the same conclusion that I came to. Still, I suppose it's possible that in the past people might have used 'Regno' and it was understood in the context just what kind of 'regno' it was? Actually, the Vikipedio page twice uses 'La Regno' (capital letter there) when refering to the UK, despite the page being titled 'La Unuiĝinta Reĝlando'.

ceigered (Voir le profil) 30 octobre 2010 02:30:47

sudanglo:I think her Majesty may have a few places left in the Tower of London for recalcitrant foreigners who persist in showing lack of proper respect for her Regno.
Exactly why I respect my queen by stating quite clearly that she has a kingdom, and not a mere "realm" which could be ruled by any inferior such as a President or Prime Minister okulumo.gif.
Outside the territory of certain well established country names (eg Finnlando, Nederlando), names with lando are often used to mock or introduce an element of fantasy.

If I want to be disparaging to the countries of the European Monetary Union then I will refer to them as 'Eŭrolando'.

If I wish to sneer at the Esperantists, I may speak of the inhabitants of 'Esperanto-lando'

In a Fe-rakonto I will refer to 'Karotlando' for the country dominated by a certain root vegetable.

Please take note denizens of the 'Prezidentlando NordAmerika'.
These are all yours, not mine. I just use "lando" for what it means - a land, a country, a territory, etc. Any sense of "lando" having mocking connotations that permeate throughout all uses of the word are contrived IMHO since I doubt it was intended for "lando" to have such, and I'd nearly argue that it is an unnecessary carry-over from Natlangs. For me, any mocking connotations occur not because "lando" is present but because "karot-" or whatever is. The sillyness is in the "carrot", not the "land".

(since words don't have unnecessary status quo in EO like in English, where French based words take the glory over natural constructs.)

Also: for Russian, "regno" apparently translates to "derzhava" (держава) which means apparently according to various dictionaries something like "power, empire, orb, globe". If regno isn't a neologism, then I suspect that the Russian meaning is closer than the English cognate "reign"'s. Example: "Россия как мировая держава" = Russia as a world power (name of a thread in Russian).
(Pronounced 'rosij@ kak miro'vaj@ dir'Zav@)

This contrasts many translations to western european languages, which often end up as "Reich/rijk/regno" etc.

As for Prezidentlando Nordamerika, I would actually not mind using that. Prezidentlando is a great way to say a land ruled by a president, is it not?

RiotNrrd (Voir le profil) 30 octobre 2010 03:19:10

Outside the territory of certain well established country names (eg Finnlando, Nederlando), names with lando are often used to mock or introduce an element of fantasy.
Well, yes, that IS true... in English.

I am not sure that that necessarily carries over into Esperanto, however. While there may be a mocking or fantasy feel to "X"-land in English, I personally have not gotten that feel when following the same pattern in Esperanto. Esperanto is a different language, however, and may not follow the same usage customs as English in every case.

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