erinja:I could call myself Her Royal Highness the Countess of Esperantia and people would think me insane.

On the contrary, I find "Her Royal Highness Erin the Countess of Esperantia" quite charming.

And I think your Lernu forum posting history is sufficient documentation.

Genjix:I didn't say markets would disappear, I said capitalism is evil. Markets are vibrant exciting placed. Capitalism is exploitation.

It's possible to control Capitalism. And there seem to excist different gradations of Capitalism, isn't? Manchester capitalism vs. Social capitalism

Genjix:
Anarchy is not the sudden breakdown of society. It's the lack of a central government. You still have direct democracy which more reflects our natural processes. Anyone who sees the bureaucratic procedures & ways of deciding things on Wikipedia will see it more naturally reflects the way we work.

There are a lot of definitions around what Anarchy in detail means. I did encounter 2-3 years of Anarchy in East-Germany which did mean that hooligans and black block mob bash policemens and did not get any punishment. Including maybe police-claimants! (That sick mob hurls flaggings from a distance of 2 meters inside a police car. They are happy not to be shoot down by police.) Please tell me, how an decentralized society should be capable to control hooligans like that Black Block mob? And please don't tell me that they would not celebrate violence if the police would not be present. Just search at youtube with "G8 black block". In my opinion it's not necessary to repeat the fail of Weimarer Republik and let some Bla-Bla-movement take over control to make some war against Blub-Blub-Blub in the name of Bla-Bla-Bla.

Genjix:
Imagine just doing that in real life. Those who say it can't work on large scales, speak bs- research scientists, free software (Linux, Wikipedia, others)... All large projects with their own creative processes.

Yes, they are full of creative folks. But also very often full of ego-centering people. Just take a look at the Linux kernel discussion lists.

"Please tell me, how an decentralized society should be capable to control hooligans like that Black Block mob?"

I'm not advocating Anarchism. I'm just stating that it's the general trend line of society. Individual freedom is growing and people are becoming more independent of central government. Society changes and evolves gradually.

It sounds like you don't understand Anarchism. You're describing Anomie (the sudden break-down of society). No-one argues that the failure of economic shock-therapy proves that capitalism is unworkable. Transitions to new systems undergo slow gradual change to minimise impact.

I'm not saying there will be a sudden 10 year revolution. Just that central power has been continually eroded and replaced bottom up participation. It's not a stretch to conclude that this is a snowball process that will only continue indefinitely.

Government lives off of taking personal freedom and economic freedom (that's why the Nolan chart moves from authoritarian to libertarian). There's no barrier to future economic independence. Already online currencies exist such as Bitcoin that are decentralised. Local currencies have been in proven use in the last few decades. In personal freedom, we're still bound except in our speech.

A future government standing on one last leg of restricting personal freedom is a disappearing one waiting for that final kick to their support before they give way. I understand that maybe some of you think this too exaggerated or impossibly removed from reality. However realise that societies have radically changed. Our current systems are not at the final point in time and they will change. Just like in the 19th century when physicists concluded that they had discovered everything in Physics!

Just examine the facts and make the logical conclusions. (I also find it kind of weird how you feel the need to have a chaperone that knows your best interests better than you. Humans self assemble. We are a good species so don't be skeptical )

"Yes, they are full of creative folks. But also very often full of ego-centering people. Just take a look at the Linux kernel discussion lists."

What an insult. I used to work on Free Software full-time paid and can guarantee many are not ego-centred but passionate. Some programmers do put on a facade of importance but what relevance to this conversation? Calling people who devote all of their lives and time to writing software given away for free, that Linux is *full* of egocentrists. Fuck you.

I just stated that the complex self-evolved bureaucratic processes in Wikipedia serve an example to how self assembly works. Just go and read all the rules, templates, traditions... Everything. It's an open participation democracy. (For years free software projects have been doing the same too but I mention Wikipedia because it's the most familiar for people)

Let's keep it clean, please.

What the hell happened here? I see what you're saying Genjix, so essentially it's like the original Marxist ideology that you start of with tribes which are a family-like governing structure, then with feudalism, then with capitalism, then socialism, and then utopia...

Also, there are societies that get away without having police or whatnot - some tribal or village communities in Indonesia exist quite happily without them, that is until their fishermen come into "Australian waters" and are told they are breaking "laws" - for them, it'd be strange since how does one "own" the sea and what are these "laws" they talk of?

The problem with hooligans is mostly due to the centralisation of most countries now - everyone's moving to the cities, and since it's impossible to know everyone in a city, we get to see how humans react in such an alien situation to them. Some simply don't respect things around them because the things around them are unimportant and exist all around them in obscene quantities etc.

Genjix:

qwertz:"Yes, they are full of creative folks. But also very often full of ego-centering people. Just take a look at the Linux kernel discussion lists."

What an insult. I used to work on Free Software full-time paid and can guarantee many are not ego-centred but passionate.

Passion and egocentricity aren't exactly too far from each other. And Qwertz is very right in that there are many who view themselves as being above others due to their use of whatever software they're using. But I think where this is going astray is that an assumption has been created here that only Linuxy people are egocentric etc, which is wrong. Wherever you find people passionate about something, you find these egocentric people too. Linux can be an example, but so can things like video games, manga, movies, business, etc.

Most of the time I find such egocentric people are those who believe their hobby makes them superior to others who don't share it because they feel like they need a way to prop themselves up social-status or self-confidence wise. Quite often it's because they didn't fit in somewhere because they weren't good at something others were, and thus they tried to make themselves feel superior etc as a person because of their superiority at their hobby.

This is not something caused by free software or niche tastes in reading/watching or anything like that - this is once again related to the hooliganism issue, in that people don't actually perceive things around them as being important and fail to perceive those around them as being equal to themselves. This is a disturbing lack of empathy that most of society has nowadays, and it alienates people and causes them to feel egocentric so they can level the playing field. Which of course is also a blatant lack of empathy. It's a self-propogating cycle.

Of course, there are people who possess empathy and still have egocentric or indifferent behaviours (like myself ::malvirta rido:, but that's more to do with someone's actual personality as opposed to a mask or way to prop themselves up .

As for Glenn Beck, his EO comments could have been a product of a person in a overpopulated area thus becomming indifferent and non-empathetic in regards ot the issues which he talks about, or it could just be his personality. I'd prefer the latter, since I like tossers people with whom I disagree who are like that naturally more than people who are "nice" but don't relate to anyone on the inside.

Genjix:
"Yes, they are full of creative folks. But also very often full of ego-centering people. Just take a look at the Linux kernel discussion lists."

What an insult. I used to work on Free Software full-time paid and can guarantee many are not ego-centred but passionate. Some programmers do put on a facade of importance but what relevance to this conversation? Calling people who devote all of their lives and time to writing software given away for free, that Linux is *full* of egocentrists. Fuck you.

Yes, for sure. For me you behave like someone who can not make a step back and try to make a selfcheck about yourself. With other words, you're very hard emotionally involved. Btw. I don't exclude myself of suffering that casually.

Genjix:
I just stated that the complex self-evolved bureaucratic processes in Wikipedia serve an example to how self assembly works. Just go and read all the rules, templates, traditions... Everything. It's an open participation democracy. (For years free software projects have been doing the same too but I mention Wikipedia because it's the most familiar for people)

You describe online working democracy which will not work for areas where no or no broadband access is available. Take a look at the world wide Internet map. Does it really work offline?

ceigered:
The problem with hooligans is mostly due to the centralisation of most countries now - everyone's moving to the cities, and since it's impossible to know everyone in a city, we get to see how humans react in such an alien situation to them. Some simply don't respect things around them because the things around them are unimportant and exist all around them in obscene quantities etc.

There seems to be a lot of Black Block mob tourists who travel to self determined "Street Fight Parties" (Take a beer and hurl a paving stone at police. And howling if an policeman baton meets your head. Just solely if some TV press is around.). I.e. every year in Berlin at May 1 which is an public holiday granted to be International Worker's Day.

ceigered:

Genjix:

qwertz:"Yes, they are full of creative folks. But also very often full of ego-centering people. Just take a look at the Linux kernel discussion lists."

What an insult. I used to work on Free Software full-time paid and can guarantee many are not ego-centred but passionate.

ceigered:
Passion and egocentricity aren't exactly too far from each other. And Qwertz is very right in that there are many who view themselves as being above others due to their use of whatever software they're using. But I think where this is going astray is that an assumption has been created here that only Linuxy people are egocentric etc, which is wrong.

I participate at the Ubuntu Linux community, too. I like that Ubuntu Linux community because they are not of that RTFM! affront fraction like other Linux Distro's communities. Ubuntu Linux community tries to find a way to bring passionated programmers and ingenuous end-users together which seems to be not very easy because there still excists conflicts inside that community between philosophy-programmers and pragmatic programmers.

ceigered:
Wherever you find people passionate about something, you find these egocentric people too. Linux can be an example, but so can things like video games, manga, movies, business, etc.

you forgot karaoke

ceigered:
Most of the time I find such egocentric people are those who believe their hobby makes them superior to others who don't share it because they feel like they need a way to prop themselves up social-status or self-confidence wise. Quite often it's because they didn't fit in somewhere because they weren't good at something others were, and thus they tried to make themselves feel superior etc as a person because of their superiority at their hobby.

I wouldn't say that with that strong/hard words. In my opinion everybody should have the democratic right to choose the hobby at it's spare time someones wants. But it should be a kind of fairness to the surounding folks to step back from it's self-centered position and grant some patience to critics to its well-beloved own hobby. With other words: To be capable laughing about themselves can be really refreshing.

ceigered:
This is not something caused by free software or niche tastes in reading/watching or anything like that - this is once again related to the hooliganism issue, in that people don't actually perceive things around them as being important and fail to perceive those around them as being equal to themselves.

Regarding hooliganism: At the local radio station I heard a comment that "If someones doesn't feel any responsibility/love(?) for it's own health/physical integrity, s/he of course will not feel any respect/empathy to others". That's in my opinion why hooligans/black block mobs do actions which are capable to kill other people. Something similar issue like former soldiers coming back and do some kind of military action in civil life. Specially this ones who were involved in killing somebody.

ceigered:
This is a disturbing lack of empathy that most of society has nowadays, and it alienates people and causes them to feel egocentric so they can level the playing field. Which of course is also a blatant lack of empathy. It's a self-propogating cycle.

Yes, I agree.

ceigered:
Of course, there are people who possess empathy and still have egocentric...

I hope in this.

qwertz:Regarding hooliganism: At the local radio station I heard a comment that "If someones doesn't feel any responsibility/love(?) for it's own health/physical integrity, s/he of course will not feel any respect/empathy to others". That's in my opinion why hooligans/black block mobs (et cetera et cetera)

(a small question)

Kio estas "nigraj blokaj rotoj/bandoj"?/What are "black block mobs"?/Was sind "schwarz bloc moben"?

These chaps who look like they need a shipment of tinfoil hats and a cold glass of calm the f::* down??

They seem to be gravely misinformed or seeing a problem where there is none (or a bigger problem than in reality). A bit of talking to people with different opinions (including some of those "evil corporations" they refer to might help rather than that half-hearted assumption that they are carrying on some divine mission of theirs.

As a "minority"/"niche" group, I would hope that EOist's never resort to such tactics and rather practice a strategy of honest communication with others

Firstly, I'd like to address the original topic a bit. Several people have piped up with general support for Beck while conceding his stupidity on this particular issue. But ultimately, that is because this is an issue close to you and one which you have considered relatively deeply. This expression of ignorance on Beck's part, however, is not an isolated incident. It's not an clause where we note, "but he said some things wrong about Esperanto". It is a consistent pattern with him. One would not be far from the truth to say such absurdly incorrect information is a daily achievement for him. Any depth of study into the things he says regarding topics such as anarchism, communism, socialism, or essentially any -ism, will find him just as wrong and making comments that are just as absurdly laughable.

Therein lies the problem. He get's things so far off that a person can find themselves laughing at him while forgetting that there are people who take his misinformation en masse seriously. And then those people likewise go out and spread the misinformation. It is a virulent form of stupidity and I do not feel it an exaggeration to call it dangerous. Dangerous because of the mindset that comes with that kind of ignorance. It is, all at once, self-superior and xenophobic. And nothing good has ever or will ever come from that.

As for the more recent discussion concerning capitalism.

Capitalism is inherently flawed. If it ever meets equilibrium, if there becomes a moment when we have enough "stuff" it crumbles in upon itself. The economic problems we are having in the U.S. right now are at least partly caused by such an equilibrium. The moment people get enough "stuff" the demand for that stuff crumbles and with it the demand for things related to that stuff. And with that jobs are lost. If enough jobs are lost that reflects itself in people being reluctant to buy more stuff and the snowball of economic doom(I love the word doom, it's so scary) continues. A more efficient market would see mechanisms of production returned to people, guaranteed access to necessary goods, an approach adopting open standards of technology to fuel interorganizational and interdisciplinary research and development of goods.

Though, being an anarcho-communist, I tend to think we should just do away with capital and government entirely, I can at least concede that if properly managed they can have some, if limited, benefit.

And, erinja, I am from an extremely rural area. You city folk seem just as foreign to us Which is cool. Diversity is a benefit, not a detriment.