I'm an Australian speaker and I can easily hear a difference between ĝ and ĵ, I can't see the problem, to me they are two totally different sounds, and provided no problems for me when I was learning the basics of the language, I had and have more problems with the R and the Ĥ then I do with these two, actually I'd go so far to say they where the least of my concerns, even below that of vowel pronunciation.

@ K1attack: You CAN merge them but you'll definitely have an accent and in some cases be misunderstood.

k1attack:I think hardly any languages distinguish between the ĝ and ĵ sound (apart from legion and lesion, of which the latter was originally pronounced leezyun. I almost never use those words).

Why did Zamenhof add both ĝ and ĵ then?

Some languages that do have the difference:
English
Some slavic languages whose names I've forgotten
French in rare cases

EO has a phonology almost identical to Belorussian. See here. Spare the guttural G.

There may be many others. Remember that some languages have very deep and hard to learn sound systems and that others voice normally unvoiced consonants intervocalically, which means any language like that which has ĉ and ŝ equivalents would also logically have ĝ and ĵ equivalents.

I quite like my palatal sounds, so I do not mind them. That said, it is true that dz and ĝ do tend to take preference over a normal z and ĵ, but this isn't too important. Think of it this way - it teaches people who haven't learnt a separate ĝ or ĵ sound before a new sound, which will help them learn a new language if it has them separated. That isn't bad is it?

IMHO, Tika isn't even extreme in its sound set (it may be extreme in its vocabulary though, having many strange and streched meanings. I'm all for attempts at minimalistic vocabularies but with balance. 100 words nowadays feels just too insignificant to bother remembering). It just seems awefully similar to hawaiian.

RE Common "ĵ" words in English:
erosion
derision
fission
fusion
equation
invasion
lesion.
Also, every English speaker can make a "zh" sound despite it not appearing as much as every other sound in English, so it's clearly not that hard. In fact, for many English speakers, the rolled R is more commonly heard for them than the "zh" sound, and yet the "zh" sound is definitely much easier. So I think that should be indicative that it's not much of a challenge. As for Japanese (Or Nihongo/Nipponese/Whatever you want to call it), well, the Japanese often slaughter foreign words in popular media even when they're perfectly capable of pronouncing them quite well, so I wouldn't use Japanese as a shining example. Their sound set is something to be envious of in some aspects, but let me tell you that language can be very hard simply because the simple sound set means many words sound identical to each other.

EDIT: Also, if we merge ĝ and ĵ, why not merge ŝ and s? Since after all, there are many English speakers that pronounce s as a ŝ (is this an English thing? I've never heard of it in other languages as strongly as in English. Maybe it's an influence from German (e.g. Spiel ~ [Spi:l])

Such things are the thoughts one puts into making a new language over an existing language, since you have to then redefine the whole character of a language.

ceigered, let's please not feed the trolls, ok?

This is not the appropriate forum for this.

Plus if I hear about Arpee's languages one more time I think I might throw up.

erinja:Plus if I hear about Arpee's languages one more time I think I might throw up.

Still, he has a good singing voice, I seem to remember.

erinja:ceigered, let's please not feed the trolls, ok?

This is not the appropriate forum for this.

Plus if I hear about Arpee's languages one more time I think I might throw up.

+1

ceigered: The German spelling "st" sometimes means a "st" sound, sometimes a "ŝt" sound. I don't know of any rule to tell what to use, but most words have a "ŝt" sound, some like Struktur and gestern are mere exceptions. Some speakers of (southern) dialects, however, pronounce Standard German "st" as "ŝt" too. Same thing for "sp", btw.

erinja:ceigered, let's please not feed the trolls, ok?

This is not the appropriate forum for this.

Plus if I hear about Arpee's languages one more time I think I might throw up.

I'm explaining from my viewpoint why this isn't a simple matter and why I don't see it possible to simply "merge" letters of a foreign letter based on ones tastes towards another foreign language. The idea being that k1attack doesn't have as much need to ask again, and to prevent any chance of him feeling victimised by the 'Esperanto bullies' who didn't explain things 'enough' for him.

Perhaps I'm a bit too empathetic by nature, and don't want either side to be hurt.
At the same time, I'm awefully s::::ed-off by a subliminal attitude lurking whenever this pops up (seriously. Tell the person why, and reinforce it. People don't gain knowledge by being told half-arsed answers, they just become inflexible people that way).

@ Darkweasel:
Cheers - perhaps then it is just a cross-cultural thing

ceigered, do you believe that k1attack asks these questions out of an honest interest in learning? He has posted a ton of potential language reforms to this forum, and it has already been explained to him countless times (nicely) why these reforms aren't likely to be accepted.

I really think that we have been very kind to him here in these forums; in other forums I think people would have lost patience long ago. His behavior in these forums nearly got him banned from the site in the past. Suffice it to say I am not willing to indulge his trolling anymore.

I think that if he was asking out of an honest desire to learn, he would have gotten the message long, long ago that Esperanto is not open to these sorts of reforms. And for the record, even if he was proposing the greatest reform in the whole universe, guess what - We aren't taking it! Because Esperanto isn't open to reforms, no matter how good an idea they are.

If k1attack has told you privately that people on these forums have bullied him then I think he is being overly sensitive. I think this forum has been extraordinarily patient and nice considering how many off-topic threads he has started here, even after being warned about this.

erinja:If k1attack has told you privately that people on these forums have bullied him then I think he is being overly sensitive.

He hasn't in his defence, it is just my over-sensitivity.

Either way, there's clearly a communicational issue. If we're to compare this forum's practices with that of others, then private messages from "moderators" are in order.

Otherwise, I've no problem drilling it into his head again and again until there's a metaphorical hole in there so big any message will get through. Actually, I'm more hoping that those that might wish attempting the same will see my posts and realise however much I am neutral on the subject there are reasons why things don't work as far as reforms go, or why sometimes they do and what the consequences are.

Anyway, apologies for my stubborn/strange/downright annoying stance. I'm feeling rather tired now anyway.

In Esperanto, if the J-sound (whether it's the English OR French version) appears as a g in the source language, then ĝ is used in Esperanto (manĝi, ŝanĝi, ĝenerala), but if the sound (either the English or the French version) appears as a j, then ĵ is used (ĵargono, ĵurnalo).

Why????

I think pronouncing ŝanĝi with a French-j sound is more natural, and it's how French people pronounce it. Vice versa for ĵargono.

But it's easy to work out whether it should be written as a ĝ or a ĵ in the written language. I don't want to merge the letters. I just want to merge the sounds. (because French people (I think) can't pronounce the English-j sound and other people around the world can't pronounce the French-j sound)

k1attack:In Esperanto, if the J-sound (whether it's the English OR French version) appears as a g in the source language, then ĝ is used in Esperanto (manĝi, ŝanĝi, ĝenerala), but if the sound (either the English or the French version) appears as a j, then ĵ is used (ĵargono, ĵurnalo).

Why????

I think pronouncing ŝanĝi with a French-j sound is more natural, and it's how French people pronounce it. Vice versa for ĵargono.

But it's easy to work out whether it should be written as a ĝ or a ĵ in the written language. I don't want to merge the letters. I just want to merge the sounds. (because French people (I think) can't pronounce the English-j sound and other people around the world can't pronounce the French-j sound)

There's no reason to worry; I say this because they aren't complex sounds, and EO does allow for some error. Basically, all a "ĝ" is, is really a palataly sound that goes from hard to soft, and has a bit more vibration than a ĉ. There are French equivalents (Djedaï ), and it's not like it's an alien sound from some language in central asia. Remember, if they haven't heard of Esperanto, they would still have heard of English, and English has all these sounds that Esperanto has.

A very important thing to take into account is the etymology of an Esperanto word. Esperanto words often try to have similar spelling to the words they originally came from, unless that word was too strange to begin with. So, that's why most WRITTEN j's in French become ĵ in Esperanto, and most WRITTEN g's in French and Italian become ĝ/g in Esperanto. The reason ch goes to ŝ is just a Zamenhoffian choice that you'd have to ask him

So think of it this way: if Zamenhoff wrote "manĝi", it must have come from the French "manger" or the Italian "mangiare". If he wrote "manĵi", then we have a problem - why? Because there is no "manjer" in French, and there is not "magniare" in Italian. Also, "manĝi" is a lot easier to pronounce in Esperanto than "manĵi", because "manĝi" means you can pronounce the "n" like a normal "n". "manĵi" means you have to learn how to pronounce a nasal vowel before a ĵi, because if you said "manĵi" with a normal "n", it would have a high chance of turning "ĵ" into a "ĝ" anyway in the pronunciation.

If you still want to merge ĝ and ĵ, you may do so in your own speech where there are no conflicts or problems, like aĵo vs. aĝo. But you will have an accent and will be speaking in an interesting way that some Esperantists may have trouble learning. Esperanto is ALREADY A LANGUAGE WITH TOO MANY SPEAKERS TO CHANGE SO FREELY, SO YOU CAN NOT POSSIBLY CHANGE IT.

ANY CHANGES MUST BE SUBLIMINAL: E.G. YOU HAVE TO START A TREND OR SOMETHING. BUT AS YOU CAN SEE, IT IS VERY HARD TO START A TREND A LANGUAGE (like English, that's why slang gets outdated after 10 years or so, like totally unrad dood), SO I RECOMMEND YOU EITHER DON'T TRY IT OR DO IT SO WELL THAT NONE OF US KNOW IT'S HAPPENING.

If you really want to go ahead with your revolution, try convincing all 1,000,000+ Esperanto speakers somehow. I kid you not, it's probably easier to get into government.

Dankon