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With N or without N

viết bởi EoMy, Ngày 20 tháng 12 năm 2010

Tin nhắn: 13

Nội dung: English

EoMy (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 19:04:14 Ngày 20 tháng 12 năm 2010

Vivu Esperanto

Now, some said it is with N and some said is without N as Esperanto is the subject but other claim it is with N as it is object.

I am shoko.gif senkulpa.gif demando.gif

1. Vivu Esperanto
2. Vivu EsperantoN

tommjames (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 19:15:38 Ngày 20 tháng 12 năm 2010

1. is definitely correct and shows a wish for Esperanto to live on, like how you might say "long live the King!" in English.

As for 2, IMO this could be correct if you meant to command someone to "live Esperanto", as in how you might say "live your life" or something like that. In Esperanto the root viv' is typically an intransitive verb, meaning it doesn't (usually) take an object. But to me, something like "vivi longan vivon" is perfectly understandable and correct, and so I wouldn't have a problem with "vivu Esperanton" from a grammatical point of view. That said I probably wouldn't say such a thing myself, I would just say "uzu kaj ĝuu Esperanton en via vivo" or something to that effect.

darkweasel (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 20:10:02 Ngày 20 tháng 12 năm 2010

For the meaning you most likely mean, it's vivu Esperanto without -n. rideto.gif

horsto (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 14:17:53 Ngày 21 tháng 12 năm 2010

Allthough perhaps some people really want to express what tommjames explained, I think the main reason for the second form is that people are confused because the subject is standing behind the verb, and therefore they think they have to add a -n.

Silvestre (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 17:34:40 Ngày 21 tháng 12 năm 2010

Miaopinie:

1) Vivu esperanto!

2) Travivu esperanton.

Laux mesagxon de tommjames

Chainy (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 19:04:22 Ngày 21 tháng 12 năm 2010

horsto:I think the main reason for the second form is that people are confused because the subject is standing behind the verb, and therefore they think they have to add a -n.
You're absolutely right, there, horsto. If you put it the other way round, I think everyone would be perfectly comfortable with it! (Esperanto vivu!)

yugary (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 10:43:41 Ngày 23 tháng 12 năm 2010

Vivi is intransitive, so it can't take a direct object.

tommjames (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 12:01:23 Ngày 23 tháng 12 năm 2010

yugary:Vivi is intransitive, so it can't take a direct object.
What you mean to say is vivi can't take a direct object, so it is intransitive.

The only problem though is that it can, as any verb can if its sense permits it.

ceigered (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 12:27:00 Ngày 23 tháng 12 năm 2010

Well, to any extent, "vivi umon" tends not to make sense (there would be times it could make sense, but it's something that can be dealt with on a case by case basis), and neither would "vivu esperanton", so there doesn't seem to be much to worry about.

Polaris (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 13:23:12 Ngày 23 tháng 12 năm 2010

If you're saying "Live Esperanto" as in "get involved in the movement and let Esperanto become a part of you"---I.E. "live an Esperanto-filled life", then it seems that you have no choice other than to make the verb transitive (and add the accusative 'n')--but for that matter, why not "vivu Esperante"? Colloquial, and a tad poetic, yes, but then again, "Vivu Esperanton" would also be a creative play on words...but either one would make sense.

Why is this such an issue? We can say "live each moment with gratitude" or "live your life one day at a time", can't we? Who declared (and where is it written) that vivi can only be intransitive?

One thing is certain, however--- Vivu Esperanto would be "let Esperanto live" or "long live Esperanto". So if the intent is to encourage one to "Experience the Esperanto life", either add and N, make it an adverb, or rewrite it, because Vivu Esperanto doesn't mean that.

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