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To Be or NOT To Be (Avoiding the word Esti?)

od Polaris, 30. prosinca 2010.

Poruke: 30

Jezik: English

tommjames (Prikaz profila) 30. prosinca 2010. 22:25:56

Irketa:but I only wondered if "mi estas interesita" wouldn't mean that I was interesed in past. Wouldn't be a better option "mi estas interesata pri katoj"?
It depends on the lexical aspect of the verb. There are some verbs where either participle can be fine (examples at PMEG here). I think interesi is probably capable of working the same way as in the example with okupi on that page, and so I wouldn't say that estas interesita is wrong if you wish to say that you're still interested.

RiotNrrd (Prikaz profila) 30. prosinca 2010. 22:58:57

"Interesi" is one of those words I have a LOT of trouble with, because it doesn't (seem to) function like most verbs.

In practical terms, with "interesi" the object is acting upon the subject - the reverse of how most verbs work.

In the case of something like "Mi interesas la policojn", I (the subject) may not even be AWARE of the police (the object) and their interest in me. Perhaps I am under surveillance and just going about my presumably nefarious business, completely obliviously; the police are the ones taking action in the form of interest, not me. That reversal of what is acting on what is not how most verbs operate.

Beyond the most simplistic of cases (such as the above), I get very confused about how to properly use the word. Throw an -iĝ or an -ita or -inta (or variations) in there, and I'm never sure exactly what is being said.

Kinlaso (Prikaz profila) 30. prosinca 2010. 23:21:32

I like using the adjective verbs. I think they sound better than using 'estas' all the time. It can be jarring for me to hear the same word over and over, like hearing someone use 'um' over and over during a speech. I think it falls on personal preference though on which to use.

When I was learning Esperanto, they taught me that it was important to use and understand noun-verbs and adjective-verbs. Maybe to make word play/usage easier since you can morph any radical into different forms easily?

ceigered (Prikaz profila) 31. prosinca 2010. 03:01:45

tommjames:
Irketa:but I only wondered if "mi estas interesita" wouldn't mean that I was interesed in past. Wouldn't be a better option "mi estas interesata pri katoj"?
It depends on the lexical aspect of the verb. There are some verbs where either participle can be fine (examples at PMEG here). I think interesi is probably capable of working the same way as in the example with okupi on that page, and so I wouldn't say that estas interesita is wrong if you wish to say that you're still interested.
Mmm, mi estas interesita pri tiu paĝo okulumo.gif (or perhaps avoiding the whole telic distinction, "al mi tiu paĝo estas interesa")

That stuff about (a)telic endings to actions is quite interesting...

sudanglo (Prikaz profila) 31. prosinca 2010. 11:48:20

English loves the passive construction, Esperanto leans towards the active.

In English the natural question is 'Are you/Would you be interested', rather than 'Does that/Would that interest you'.

In Esperanto, 'Ĉu tio interesas/us vin'.

In both languages, I think it might be fair to say that once interest is awoken it tends to persist.

Partoprenis la kongreson 50 Esperantistoj kaj aliaj interesitoj. (Interesatoj, here would seem to be unlikely.)

'Interesit' is perhaps more often used as an adjective or noun or adverb than in the passive construction with 'esti'.

I don't think 'mi estas interesita', would normally imply a past interest.

horsto (Prikaz profila) 31. prosinca 2010. 12:53:28

RiotNrrd:
In practical terms, with "interesi" the object is acting upon the subject - the reverse of how most verbs work.
Perhaps you should see it the other way round. The subject did something or has something that creates your interest, f.e.: Tiu homo interesas min.
The problem for you probably is, that in english you can express that only passively, as far as I know.

erinja (Prikaz profila) 31. prosinca 2010. 13:00:15

You can certainly do an active construction of "interest" in English.

A shopkeeper can say to a customer "Does anything interest you?"

Or "Nothing on television interests me tonight"

ceigered (Prikaz profila) 31. prosinca 2010. 15:36:52

It may be because we have "I like", "I know", "I understand", all to do with mental states etc, and then "It interests me" is quite strange for us. After looking at the Latin though, "inter-est", the word order makes perfect sense.

Polaris (Prikaz profila) 31. prosinca 2010. 22:08:01

horsto:I think it's not a good idea to always use the x-as form instead of estas. Also PMEG recommends:
PMEG:Oni ne trouzu tiajn verbojn, ĉar tiam la speciala nuanco povus malaperi, kaj la lingvo malriĉiĝus. Ekz. oni normale ne diras la ĉielo bluas, sed la ĉielo estas blua. Oni ŝparu la verban formon por specialaj efektoj.
That means, if you too often use this x-as form, then the special nuance of this form could disappear and that would make the language less rich.
You should use the x-as forms only for special effects.
Very interesting that the PMEG cautions against an overuse of this construction. I needed to know that. Thank you!

T0dd (Prikaz profila) 2. siječnja 2011. 15:06:13

Part of the problem (if it is a problem) is that Esperanto's 'iĝi' ending is used as a kind of pseudo-passive, when the root is a normally transitive verb.

"Bluiĝi" means to become blue, but "interesiĝi" does not mean to become interesting, even though "interesa" does mean interesting. This is another illustration of the point that Esperanto roots are not grammatically neutral. "Interes-" is shown to be more "verbish" than adjectival. A transitive verb, with the 'iĝi' ending behaves differently from an adjective with that ending. An intransitive verb can't really use the ending at all. What would "vojaĝiĝi" mean, for example?

"Mi interesiĝis pri Esperanto antaŭ dudek jaroj" also suggests the onset of interest in Esperanto. The verb "interesi" doesn't carry that nuance, so to preserve it without a passive construction, it would probably be necessary to say "Esperanto ekinteresis min antaŭ dudek jaroj." If you simply said "Esperanto interesis min antaŭ dudek jaroj" you might insinuate that you haven't been interested in Esperanto since then.

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