Miland:
Dear Sir

Thank you for your message suggesting reforms to the Esperanto language.

I should inform you that the fundamentals of the language were fixed at the first World Congress in 1905 and are permanent, for all practical purposes. This commitment to the fundamentals has given the language its stability.

While a gradual evolution does occur with time, any changes have to become accepted by a consensus of the community of users of the language. I am sure that you will understand that beginners are not qualified to propose such changes.

We would encourage all sympathetic enquirers to learn Esperanto, as it really is, and see for themselves that Zamenhof's International Language is an effective solution for the world's language problem.

Yours Sincerely

...

So I've peeked in on this thread a little the past couple days. It goes the same as all the newbie-I-know-better-than-ye threads.

I've noticed that they all seem to be under the impression that Lernu somehow IS Esperanto. As if this website IS the caretaker of the language. They need to realize that esperanto spans the entire globe - a hundred years worth of the entire globe - and that suggesting some change inspired by personal taste of what sounds best or is easiest to learn or use or whatever to a few dozen members of THIS particular thread in this corner of the internet ain't gonna change anything anyway. The incubation period is over. The language has already matured.

Language change happens on it's own. It has happened, and will happen to esperanto. More speakers will drive change, but in a direction that is bigger then any one little speaker. The language itself and the global community of speakers, readers, and writers are the mechanism and it just kinda happens.

'Cause esperanto is already REAL.

K.

There's my big shpeel.

The short version is, "Get over yourself. The work's done. Learn. Join, it's worth it."

I am all in favor of a Lernu page that explains why Esperantists are conservative types (linquistically). It doesn't have to be snide or mean.

Some new students develop ideas regarding ways to improve the language, and may be disappointed to find that the general community isn't receptive to their proposals. There are many reasons for the lack of receptivity to new ideas, and beginners proposing changes to the language should neither be surprised nor disappointed that their ideas will fall on deaf ears. Here is why:Esperanto is not a project under construction. It's considered "done", and has been for over a century.
... (and so on with the list)

In the past I've seen some pretty coherent and logical reasons from many of us - list 'em out, post 'em somewhere.

Send the newbies to that page, and if they come back and still want to talk about their "improvements" we can and should feel free to ridicule them at will.

Perhaps a thread should be started (here or elsewhere) to compose the text of such a page - there's no reason it can't be a community effort. Compile the ultimate list of why Esperantists aren't going to listen to newbies proposing changes; toss out the iffy arguments and keep the solid ones (quality of argument is better than quantity, and it's hard to argue with quality).

erinja:(b)nicely and succinctly explain that Esperanto isn't open to reforms, and then ignore their follow-on messages, or (c) other? I am assuming that (ĉ) listen to their ideas and then engage in a debate isn't an option.

In that order of preference with B) being preferable in a wonderful socialist utopia full of unicorns, C) being pure anarchy like now, Ĉ) being if the CHOSEN ONE appears.

I like RiotNrrd's idea of the little page explaining *why* EO ain't up for extensive modifications just as why any other language isn't.

Erinja:There is an active Conlang listserv which I understand to be not too friendly towards Esperanto

Strange

RiotNrrd:Send the newbies to that page, and if they come back and still want to talk about their "improvements" we can and should feel free to ridicule them at will.

That WILL come back to bite the EO community on the arse though... So perhaps maybe in moderation?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule (Although a more skin-deep level version - thus not taking into account those who'd rather be scolded than go astray)

(It's a PR nightmare really - ordinary uninvolved fellows probably have no default swing towards either EO or newbie reforms; a bystander might assume both sides are equally stupid for fighting over something so silly. Thus education of the fact that EO is not really changeable is extremely important to make sure that a bystander can go "Ok, EO apparently isn't changeable, so it's a bit dickish to try", and so a would-be changer can go "damn, nothing here to change. Maybe I'll learn the language as is!".)

RiotNrrd:I am all in favor of a Lernu page that explains why Esperantists are conservative types (linquistically). It doesn't have to be snide or mean.

And besides that I think it would be worth while having a forum like "Neoficiala lingvouzo"

There people could discuss any kinds of neologisms, things like iĉ-ism or ri-ism. I would love to discuss about those things. Even about abolishing accusative. It's not that I don't want to discuss about that.

One condition: In Esperanto, i.e. in standard Esperanto. If a reformist is not able to show that he or she is able to use the currently spoken Esperanto without making two errors per sentence, I will refuse further discussion. Someone suggests to abolish accusative who is not able to use accusative properly, simply has not understood the concept of accusative completly and thus is not qualified about discussing about it.

Any kind of reformation must come from inside the system to be reformed, by people who really know the system and all its weaknesses.

johmue:Any kind of reformation must come from inside the system to be reformed, by people who really know the system and all its weaknesses.

Slightly problematic since we're all involved emotionally to a certain degree and we already have Esperantisto viewpoints, so it's hard for us to play devils advocates with ourselves.

Then again, there isn't anything particularly hard about EO to begin with, so no biggy. But worth a though laŭ mi.

johmue:

RiotNrrd:I am all in favor of a Lernu page that explains why Esperantists are conservative types (linquistically). It doesn't have to be snide or mean.

And besides that I think it would be worth while having a forum like "Neoficiala lingvouzo"

This could be a good idea, johmue. Complaints about Esperanto *in* Esperanto. Of course, someone could then use machine translation software to get round the requirement to use Esperanto.

But if someone wants to have their opinions about reforms and changes really respected by others, then they need to show an excellent knowledge of Esperanto. This probably wouldn't be possible with machine translation.

So, to continue with the idea of a 'Neoficiala Lingvouzo' section - this could mean that all such discussions could be entirely banned from the forums in national languages. And an explanation for this could be given.

Chainy:I think the tone is a bit too too cold and formal.

It was meant to be a standard letter, impersonal in tone. People who would like something different are welcome to try.

Chainy:So, to continue with the idea of a 'Neoficiala Lingvouzo' section - this could mean that all such discussions could be entirely banned from the forums in national languages. And an explanation for this could be given.

What about questions about non-official usage by learners wondering if it's worth paying attention to them? I don't think outright banning would be smart - it's a massive grey area.

Proposals for new unofficial usage would be sent straight there of course though, since that doesn't really contribute to learning.

Miland:It was meant to be a standard letter, impersonal in tone.

[quote=s]Miland[/s] redaktita de mi]
Oi mate,

Thanks sooo much for your brilliant suggestion. Don't ring us, we'll ring you.

You know that you can't just change EO, stupe? If every man, his dog and his sheila went and buggered (sorry yanks) up the language we might as well all be speaking gibberish.

Sure, stuff changes every now and then, but only when everyone's not so put off by it that we all simultaneously puke (Especially when some newbie like yourself goes and !@$%'s around with things).

You know what you should do? Actually try LEARNING the language. !$!@$&.

Yours Sincerely

...[/quote]Yeah, the impersonal formal tone seems a bit nicer than the ad hominem colloquial tone...

erinja:It's really not lernu's responsibility to provide people a place to come and whine .. Sometimes I wonder whether it wouldn't be best to make an informational page at lernu about why Esperanto isn't open to planned reforms..

This could be dealt with as a (very) FAQ. One possibility might be to have a link from the introduction to a page dealing with this, written by the teamo. Any beginner would-be reformer (and they do turn up now and then) could be simply referred to that page, without further comment.

e.g.

wannabe reformer:I am interested in Esperanto and might learn it some day. Meanwhile, here is a suggestion on how you could improve it to make it easier for me and many others...

This subject is dealt with [url]here[/url].

(Of course, the page hasn't been written yet).