Epikuro57:I've expressed clearly that I'm only onboard if I don't have to use all these mal- words.

Well, then simply stay "offboard".

Neologisms are necessary to express the range of things I can express in English, I'm not about to give that up. Even a simple English expression like "I'm not rich but I'm not poor either" requires a neologism to be said well in Esperanto. "Mi ne riĉa sed mi ne estas povra ajne" is far more sensible than "Mi ne riĉa sed mi ne estas malriĉa ajne." The latter just sounds dumb.

"ajne"? I'd suggest that you first learn Esperanto properly before you talk about "improvements" and "extensions".
This just shows that you don't have much experience with Esperanto. Those kinds of sentences are really common in Esperanto and noone is complaining about them, but people who do not speak Esperanto.

"Tion mi nek ŝatas nek malŝatas."

I really like to discuss about the weeknesses of Esperanto, but I only in Esperanto with people who know Esperanto sufficiently well to know what is a real weakness and what isn't.

marcuscf:

Chainy:On a site for learning English, I can easily imagine a section dedicated to those feeling a bit stressed about it all, or hating this or that aspect to it. It's healthy to let the steam out a bit, just not smack bang in the middle of all other threads!

Ie'd lûv an Inglish fòrûm with a sèction dèdikaeted to spèling refòrmers. Or sûmwhèr we cud tyep èverything in a fonètic älfabèt

Dare I say I actually like what you've done there, it's actually understandable and looks Englishy.

Vs. "aid lav æn inglish forim widh æ sekshin" blah blah blah *shoots self*

Anyway, the multilingual moan bin is an AWESOME idea. Better yet if some people were sarcastic there too (definitely NOT myself, pfft, why would I be involved? )

"Hey lads, I've got several ideas to change esperanto, don't worry, they'll be minor and mutually intelligible:
- ŭ replaced by w and w/j goes inbetween u/o/i/e and a following vowel
- a goes to ik because a is too easily confused with e
- present tense -es
- past tense -it
- future tense -or
- active participles -esent-, -itent-, -orent-
- passive participles -eset-, -itet-, -oret-
- plural becomes -s
- all clusters become simplified - tr/dr/fr/ŝr -> r
- articles take plural like adjective
- kv/gv -> k, g
- accusative becomes na (by this point peoples eyes would be burning)

Thus:
Mi es (estes) na esperesentisto. Chu mik esperesentiks vortos es na komprenitetiks? Ne? Kijal ne? *"



(Subsequent thread: "okej, ŭi ar naŭ oŭnly goŭing tu spijk lajk thij ingliŝ længgŭeĝ iz esperáantoŭ", shortly followed by "simpel ang-ge-lo-zhong-wen", and eventually things will spiral out of control like the conlang wiki)

But in all seriousness I like the idea of the moan bin. Perfect place for "diabolic barristers" like myself - until we crack and go "OKAY FOR GODS SAKE IT'S NOT THE LANGUAGE THAT SUCKS ITS YOU! FASFASD&Q@@!!!!"

johmue:Well, then simply stay "offboard".

Would you really prefer me to give Esperanto up and stick to English? That's the alternative after all. How many others who've looked into Esperanto over time have decided to give it up? How much further ahead would Esperanto be in the world if those people had all come onboard?

"ajne"? I'd suggest that you first learn Esperanto properly before you talk about "improvements" and "extensions".
This just shows that you don't have much experience with Esperanto. Those kinds of sentences are really common in Esperanto and noone is complaining about them, but people who do not speak Esperanto.

"Tion mi nek ŝatas nek malŝatas."

I wanted a word other than "aŭ" since that means or and either is a different word. Two online sources I consulted gave "ajne" as one word for either, I realize now that "ĉu" is what I was looking for. I admit I'm a beginner, my progress has been much slower than it would be if I hadn't needed to find alternatives for so many words. I fully intend to learn it well, complete with extensions like basa, mikra, povra, liva and many more.

I really like to discuss about the weeknesses of Esperanto, but I only in Esperanto with people who know Esperanto sufficiently well to know what is a real weakness and what isn't.

I look forward to the day when I speak Esperanto well enough to discuss the subject in Esperanto, with extensions of course. As for what's a real weakness, I'm surprised you don't see anything that could keep people away from Esperanto a weakness.

Epikuro57:

johmue:Well, then simply stay "offboard".

Would you really prefer me to give Esperanto up and stick to English?

Yes please.

I wanted a word other than "aŭ" since that means or and either is a different word.

"aŭ" does not mean "either" in the sense of "I don't want this and I don't want that either".

Two online sources I consulted gave "ajne" as one word for either, I realize now that "ĉu" is what I was looking for.

Nope. The word you could use is "ankaŭ".

I really like to discuss about the weeknesses of Esperanto, but I only in Esperanto with people who know Esperanto sufficiently well to know what is a real weakness and what isn't.

I look forward to the day when I speak Esperanto well enough to discuss the subject in Esperanto, with extensions of course.

No way. First learn Esperanto as it is, without extensions. As long as you don't know Esperanto as it is sufficiently well to discuss the topic in Esperanto, you simply are not qualified for the discussion.

As for what's a real weakness, I'm surprised you don't see anything that could keep people away from Esperanto a weakness.

Surprise, surprise.

But I can tell you, that things like your "extensions" would keep people away from Esperanto in the long run. Simply because if you keep extending a language it never stabilizes and it's hard to catch up with all the extensions.

Maybe you consider learning Ido instead. They already applied your extensions and got rid of all the mal-words some 100 years ago. And now look which language was more successful in "not keeping people away."

Epikuro57:
It's not about reforming Esperanto, it's about extending it to make more widely acceptable. If you want the language to be what Zamenhof hoped it would, it needs to be able to express the whole range of thoughts that can be expressed in English, the language that's taken off internationally in the past 60 years.

No, it really is about reforming Esperanto. To suggest that perfectly functional words, such as MALBONA, should be deleted from Esperanto and replaced by equivalent words is reform, not extension. This adds no expressive power to the language.

As for truly extending Esperanto, this is an ongoing process. Esperanto's lexicon is much larger now than it was in 1905. Nobody has any problem with that, in general, although various people take issue with various words.

To find the MAL- words disagreeable is nothing new. The neologisms to replace the more common ones have been around for a long time. You can find them in the Tekstaro. Most of them haven't caught on, but nothing stops you from using them. Just be aware that because they haven't caught on, using them will make you sound affected.

Using MAVA instead of MALBONA will sound, to Esperantists, pretty much the same as using UNGOOD instead of BAD sounds to English speakers. That is, you'll generally be understood, but you'll sound like a jerk. But don't let that stop you from making this your cause!

Moan bin, anyone?

Epikuro can have the honour of being its first user.

Epikuro57:Zamenhoff's text reinforces my view rather than changes it. He says there, "Germanan kaj francan lingvojn mi ellernadis en infaneco." Ellernadi was hitherto unknown to me, from the context it means learn but none of the online Esperanto-English dictionaries I've consulted have it.

Zamenhof's text is about the importance of affixes. It is not the case that lerni has replaced ellernadi. The reason that ellernadi might not have a separate entry in your dictionaries is that the suffixes el and ad can enable you to work out the meaning, given the basic form lerni, which should be there. In fact ellerni is in Butler's dictionary and means "learn thoroughly". Ad means something which is done over and over. So you see how this applies to learning vocabulary.

Regarding the theory that the language challenge can be met by English, you might find it worthwhile to see the video by the late Claude Piron, if you have not already done so. You may also find it worthwhile to read his article on the language problem in Africa.

Miland:Zamenhof's text is about the importance of affixes. It is not the case that lerni has replaced ellernadi. The reason that ellernadi might not have a separate entry in your dictionaries is that the suffixes el and ad can enable you to work out the meaning, given the basic form lerni, which should be there. In fact ellerni is in Butler's dictionary and means "learn thoroughly". Ad means something which is done over and over. So you see how this applies to learning vocabulary.

Regarding the theory that the language challenge can be met by English, you might find it worthwhile to see the video by the late Claude Piron, if you have not already done so. You may also find it worthwhile to read his article on the language problem in Africa.

Thanks for information and links, much appreciated. I'm familiar with Piron's video, it was one of the first Esperanto-related ones I saw and part of the reason I started learning it. He convinced me the theory that English will solve the language challenge is flawed, that's part of why I've started learnng Esperanto.

johmue:

Two online sources I consulted gave "ajne" as one word for either, I realize now that "ĉu" is what I was looking for.

Nope. The word you could use is "ankaŭ".

Not according to the lernu dictionary, it translates ankaŭ as also and ĉu as either. Different words with different meanings.

No way. First learn Esperanto as it is, without extensions. As long as you don't know Esperanto as it is sufficiently well to discuss the topic in Esperanto, you simply are not qualified for the discussion.

You're sounding very much like a close-minded purist -- a presumptuous one at that -- which is a good way of keeping the Esperanto-speaking community small and not very significant. You're also overlooking the fact that Esperanto has already been extended greatly since it was first invented.

Surprise, surprise.

But I can tell you, that things like your "extensions" would keep people away from Esperanto in the long run. Simply because if you keep extending a language it never stabilizes and it's hard to catch up with all the extensions.

Real languages grow and evolve over time, and Zamenhof was well aware of that. New words are added to English all the time, and people seem to keep up perfectly well.

Maybe you consider learning Ido instead. They already applied your extensions and got rid of all the mal-words some 100 years ago. And now look which language was more successful in "not keeping people away."

I have zero interest in Ido. From what I can tell the Idists did away with phonetic spellings, which was undoudtedly a real step backwards.

Epikuro57:

johmue:
Nope. The word you could use is "ankaŭ".

Not according to the lernu dictionary, it translates ankaŭ as also and ĉu as either. Different words with different meanings.

There is one way of using "ĉu" so that it might translate to the english "either". For example:

"Mi nun bezonas trinki ion, ĉu akvon ĉu sukon ĉu bieron."

But in your case "ankaŭ" definetly is the word to use.

You're sounding very much like a close-minded purist -- a presumptuous one at that -- which is a good way of keeping the Esperanto-speaking community small and not very significant. You're also overlooking the fact that Esperanto has already been extended greatly since it was first invented.

But not by someone whom I have not yet seen coming up with even one sentence of correct Esperanto, claiming that "My extensions are required!"

As I already told you, I like to discuss about the weaknesses of Esperanto and there are neologisms I do use. Words like "mojosa" and of course "blogo" and "vikio". And sometimes even some more unkown words like "ujutna".

Real languages grow and evolve over time, and Zamenhof was well aware of that. New words are added to English all the time, and people seem to keep up perfectly well.

But nobody, who does not speak English is trying to apply some foolish extensions. Please leave this to people who know the language. If you want to apply extensions or whatever, first learn the language properly. You will then, as many before you, realize that your extensions are not at all needed.

So please leave the debate about "extensions" to the Esperanto-speakers. Esperanto envolves as the Esperanto-speakers make it envolve in an natural way.

If you want to join, welcome. But you will need to learn and use the "mal-"words.