"Hey kids, learn Esperanto and pick up attractive European babes and hunks"

Yes, I'm still waiting for my Esperanto babe.

And I was planning on answering about kumbaya, but I find myself completely unable to put it into words. It does relate to that song though. The general feeling of an environment in which that song would be sung?

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Hi there! I've got nothing against Esperanto, I'm learning it at the moment but seriously guys, what chance is there for Esp. to become the worlds'Lingua Franca, international language or whatever, when English is compulsory at school for 100 of millions(?) of Chinese students? Let us all come back to earth guys and face reality.*sal::
Esperanto as the world's lingua franca.

T0dd:

The last US president who spoke a foreign language competently was Franklin Roosevelt. It actually hurt John Kerry's candidacy when he was foolish enough to speak French in public.

Todd

Uhh, sorry..say whatever else you like about him, but Bush 43 was/is a fluent Spanish-speaker.

So, if we all agree that Esperanto has no chance in a head to head battle with English for the role of THE lingua franca, then surely we must all agree that Esperanto needs to be 'marketed' in a different way.

I presume we would all agree that it is desirable to increase the number of speakers.

I am not at all convinced, Todd, that the loyalty and devotion that Esperanto has outstandingly evoked is unrelated to its linguistic features.

Some will have been drawn to Esperanto because of its noble intentions, but many others have learnt because of the fascination with, and the intriguing expressive potential of, its basic mechanics.

Don't forget that many early Esperantists were eks-Volapukists.

Anyway, numbers are key. It's so much more satisfying participating in a conlang movement that is so much more than just a 'kabineta' project.

sudanglo:Some will have been drawn to Esperanto because of its noble intentions, but many others have learnt because of the fascination with, and the intriguing expressive potential of, its basic mechanics.

Don't forget that many early Esperantists were eks-Volapukists.

Oy, volapük is highly expressive!
I believe the problem for Volapük consisted of various niggling issues which EO doesn't have, or not in the same amount (for example, Volapük had a nice ratio of consonants to vowels, but strangely had a e/ä* distinction with more importance than necessary (ie. German has those vowels, but rarely are there critical minimal pairs as far as suffixes etc go, unlike Volapük).

Esperanto seems to have been created with just that bit more thoughtfulness.

This could go towards EO's lists of bonuses, since EO was created by a man who wanted to create a good language for the people of the area he lived in. Something that didn't favour one person too much, while keeping words that were somewhat recognisable. Comparing this to Volapük or other languages, we find that such thoughtfulness, almost an empathy of sorts, within EO gives it a bit of an edge in learnability. Natural languages and Volapük have/had different pressures on them - Volapük to be a divinely inspired language for all humanity (to which the fina venko looks pretty lame), and native languages are often pressured to meeting the demands of their people to be the perfect identity symbol for a culture. EO wasn't created for such a purpose, whether to represent a human culture, or all human cultures combined (with heavy german influence ...). Ido also suffers from being a bit of a "world language" instead of a "cross-cultural language".

That sort of mentality, that EO was created not to aspire to conquer the world but to merely exist in it (even if Zam later on talker about bigger plans, presumably since anything less would have not kept the language alive), could help greatly.

*I dunno if this is actually easy for others to do, I doubted that if would be since it's a fairly strong thing for only some European languages. Maybe it's just me because my "e"s are naturally in between "e" and "E" (for want of the actual IPA symbols)

Lots of people sing "kumbaya" at a summer camp. It's hard to define but in the US, talking about something being "kumbaya" denotes an unrealistic idealism that has to do with everyone living in harmony.

The Urban Dictionary has a couple of suggested definitions that seem about right to me. "blandly pious and naively optimistic". "kumbaya moment" = "a naive feeling that all is good; a feeling that utopia has come down and all will be fine"

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Regarding Bush 43, my understanding is that he speaks "school" Spanish - broken and imperfect but understandable. Articles I've read online, such as this one seem to indicate that he speaks it to a degree but definitely not fluently (though he seems to be universally considered to deploy his broken Spanish with great confidence!). Evidently his brother Jeb *does* speak Spanish fluently, so people may be confusing the two Bushes when they say that GW speaks fluently.

I think we may have overestimated non-esperantists' intelligence. Perhaps they will prefer to stick to a national language (most probably that of the leading country at each historical moment), instead of using a rational solution.

However, it is what should be done and that's why I have done my part.

Mother Theresa of Calcuta used to say something like: "What I do is a a drop in the sea, but if I didn't do it, the sea would lack that drop."

(Not that I want to compare myself with her, of course.)

Regards,

Daniel

daniellor:*
Hi there! I've got nothing against Esperanto, I'm learning it at the moment but seriously guys, what chance is there for Esp. to become the worlds'Lingua Franca, international language or whatever, when English is compulsory at school for 100 of millions(?) of Chinese students? Let us all come back to earth guys and face reality.*sal::
Esperanto as the world's lingua franca.

sudanglo:
I am not at all convinced, Todd, that the loyalty and devotion that Esperanto has outstandingly evoked is unrelated to its linguistic features.

Some will have been drawn to Esperanto because of its noble intentions, but many others have learnt because of the fascination with, and the intriguing expressive potential of, its basic mechanics.

Yes, I agree. I didn't mean to imply that no one is attracted by the linguistic features of Esperanto. I was merely expressing the opinion that those features don't account for Ido's failure to thrive.

I do believe that many people find Esperanto's expressive power very compelling indeed. I'm one of them, and I'm only an intermediate level speaker. There is something very satisfying about the way Esperanto lets me, and even encourages me, to play with words. I'm pretty sure this is a big part of why talented and not so talented writers have been drawn to it from the very beginning.

For some people, with a certain kind of fascination with words, Esperanto is love at first sight. They only need to be introduced to it. They are, in my view, the main population from which new speakers are now drawn. Those who are drawn to Esperanto as a solution to the "language problem" are also numerous, but they are probably more likely to become disillusioned. No doubt their ranks have been thinned by the growth of English as a world language. Still, I know that some remain quixotically devoted to the cause for a lifetime. Then there are the kumbajistoj, to coin a new word. They are also very attracted to Esperanto in the belief that it fosters universal love and peace. They are less likely to become disillusioned, simply because their beliefs are never put to the test.

So the question is, is there any other group of people who might be drawn to Esperanto? My guess is that there are more people who, once they understand the unique story of Esperanto, and its unique status in the world today, will want to be part of it just because of its uniqueness. Because it's a chance to be part of something that has never really happened before and, if it dies out, may never happen again.

I don't think it will ever be "normal" to speak Esperanto, but I think there are plenty of people out there who would like to be part of something that rises above normal in a big way, and Esperanto does just that. The trick is to find those people and let them know what's going on.

Todd

sudanglo:
So the question is, is there any other group of people who might be drawn to Esperanto?
Todd

My attraction to Esperanto has nothing to do with Esperanto or any of the features of "designed languages".
I have always been fascinated with people who speak different languages, but German classes always haunted me, so i never bothered to learn another language. I started to learn Esperanto, for the sake of learning a different language; Esperanto appeared to be a language that i was capable of learning. I guess i learnt out of pure curiosity for speaking another language.
Since learning, i have become fascinated with the potential of the language.

The idea of promoting to schools seems to me like a great idea, not just for Esperanto, but for the students. Many people i know threw the idea of learning another language into the "too hard" basket, and gave up. To learn grammar at the same time would also reduce considerable frustration when asked to do a book report!

I have noted the "kumbaya" songs, and felt much the same dread at hearing them. I personally think that type of promotion will do more harm than good, as others who know little about the language may object to the idea of joining the "hippies". I get enough of that attitude from people by my interest in folk music.

It is a rather interesting idea as to whether there might be some quick paper and pencil test which one might apply to identify those who are 'natural' Esperantists - people who are very likely to like learning Esperanto.

You do get the impression that there is a predominance of certain types in the movement.

However, to raise the number of speakers to a point where one can begin to see Esperanto as plausible candidate for the lingua franca role (even if limited to a populist alternative to English), the net must be cast wider.

Having Esperanto taught widely in the schools (for reasons beyond its original purpose) could potentially make it a 'normal' thing to be able to speak Esperanto.

In any case, the Esperantists need, IMHO, to review their propaganda.

Some simple mathematics reveals the effectiveness of the current approach.

Let's suppose, just for argument, that in 1905 there were 600 committed Esperantists (the number attending the first UK in Boulogne). And let's suppose that each Esperantist created just 2 other committed Esperantists every 10 years (a modest achievement) And that these recruits, in their turn, recruited others at a similar pace.

Then, how many committed Esperantists should there be in 2010?