Mesaĝoj: 187
Lingvo: English
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-02 11:02:14
Tio ne estis antikveco laŭ homa skalo, sed aspekto de elĉerpiĝo kaj laco de la tero mem.
Sur la arboj la folioj pendis malĝoje, kaj oni dirus ne ĉiam-verdaj, kiom ĉiam-grizaj, neniam tute renoviĝantaj en la printempo, neniam forfalantaj en la vintro.
Estis la ŝelo de la arbo kiu forfalis; ĝi sekiĝis, fendiĝis kaj malkroĉiĝis de la trunkoj kvazaŭ la forĵetita haŭto de serpento.
UUano (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-04 03:55:29
3rdblade:Nothing in this strange country seemed to bear the slightest resemblance to the outside world: it was so primitive, so lacking in greenness, so silent, so old. It was not a measurable man-made antiquity, but an appearance of exhaustion and weariness in the land itself. The very leaves of the trees hung down dejectedly, and they were not so much ever-green as ever-grey, never entirely renewing themselves in the spring, never altogether falling in winter. It was the bark that fell; it dried up and cracked on the tree trunks and peeled off like the discarded skin of the snake.I know I have taken incredible liberties, especially with words like "malverdecemega" and "eĉa", but here's my take. I learn best when I risk saying something stupid, so I went out on a limb so to speak.
En tiu ĉi stranga kamparo, nenio ajn ŝajnis rilati al la ekstera mondo - primitivega, malverdecemega, silentega kaj oldega ĝi estis. Ne estis tia mezurebla homfarita antikveco - la tero mem elĉerpite kaj lacege aspektis. La eĉaj arbofolioj korpremite pendadis. Ili estis pli "ĉiam-grizaj" ol "ĉiam-verdaj", ĉar ili printempe neniam tute renoviĝintaj (nek vintre defalintaj) estas. Estis la ŝelo kiu emis fali; ĝi sekiĝis kaj krakis je la arbotrunkoj, kiuj post tio senŝeliĝis tiel, kiel serpento uzofinas sian haŭton.
UUano (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-04 04:07:47
I also like the use of the word "kvazaŭ", which I never think of. There were many such other things I noticed, but I'll wait to hear back from you all first.
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-04 11:53:12
'kamparo' is often used by the Esperantists in the meaning of countryside (contrasting with in the town), so 'lando' is the obvious choice here.
In this text it is debatable whether you should use 'tiu ĉi' or plain 'tiu'. In English we very carefully observe the distinction between 'this' and 'that'. My feeling is that in Esperanto (as in French) the ĉi is added more to highlight the contrast. Also because the whole passage is in the past tense, I leant more towards 'tiu'.
Perhaps I like your 'nenio ajn' better than my 'neniel, but why 'rilati'? Isn't 'simili' fine?
To translate 'so', I think most Esperantists would use 'tiel' here and then the augmentative 'eg' can be dropped.
Your use of 'eĉaj' for 'very' is very interesting. I assume you wanted to avoid a repetition of 'mem'. As far as I know this is a novel use. I'm still thinking about this.
'Kraki' is used for sounds.
In the Spring/Winter sentence, I like the way your were trying to handle it, but the 'estas' at the end of the sentence jars and you can drop it altogether by not making a separate clause here, just continuing 'printempe neniam renoviĝintaj, nek vintre defalintaj'. The plural adjective ending make it perfectly clear that one is talking about the leaves.
I used the participle forms in the present, but I see a case for using the past participles.
'Olda' instead of 'maljuna', again interesting . I thought of following the others in their use of pra(ec)a. I think I wanted to conserve the directness and the simplicty of the original. But since the author then moves on to talk of antiquity, I see why 'praa' might be preferred.
T0dd (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-04 23:09:36
Todd
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-05 03:08:15
T0dd:For what it's worth, I think ECXAJ is brilliant!I think it's cool but trying to pinpoint the meaning is hard...
Todd
Eĉ means (according to lernu!s EO-EO dict.): "surprisingly also, not only that but in addition, but in addition to that" etc.
T0dd (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-05 03:26:12
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-05 07:25:23
T0dd:ECX usually translates as "even". In this case, lA ECXAJ ARBOFOLIOJ conveys "the very leaves..." I think it just nails the nuance of the English "very" in this sort of case. ECX LA ARBOFOLIOJ would be ok, but LA ECXAJ seems just perfect to me. An inspired choice!But how do "the very" ("the same, the actual, the one mentioned beforehand") and "even" ("surprisingly also, not only that but in addition, but in addition to that") come together in meaning? They don't seem to match in any way other than being somewhat emphatic.
Reta vortaro has "Ankaŭa, plia: ni aŭskultis sen eĉa brueto dum la fajro preskaŭ estingiĝis" as the meaning for eĉa, which seems to indicate rather than "very" its meaning is more like "extra (ekstra), additional (aldona)".
(ni aŭskultis sen eĉa brueto dum la fajro preskaŭ estingiĝis/we listened with nary a sound while the fire was nearly dying down.). ~ here it seems to indicate that if we put things on a ĉi-ti-neni scale, with "all/every" as the "ĉi-" word and "nary" as the "neni-" word, "eĉa" would translate somewhere between as a sort of "ti-" word.
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-05 10:49:36
Used as a 'partikulo' I don't think that 'eĉ la folioj de la arboj' would be at all bad here.
Ceiger, I think we are trying to translate a specific text, rather than looking for an equivalent of 'very' for all contexts.
I can't quite make up my mind yet whether 'eĉaj' is a leap too far.
If the previous sentence hadn't required the use of 'mem', I think I would have been quite happy with 'la folioj mem'.
Anyway all this demonstrates how valuable this exercise is and how useful it is to see how others come up with ideas that might not have occurred to a single translator.
I can see a case for all translations to be a collaborative exercise, cherry-picking the best ideas.
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-05 19:47:38
sudanglo:I can see a case for all translations to be a collaborative exercise, cherry-picking the best ideas.Esperanto-USA's bi-monthly bulletin has a translation "competition" of this nature, where participants submit translations of a paragraph or two or difficult-to-translate text. In the next column, all of the different responses and choices are discussed and a collaborative "best" translation is published (and the English text for the following magazine's competition is also printed)