訊息: 22
語言: English
Gesar (顯示個人資料) 2011年1月26日下午10:58:37
Hi all. Again.
First, how am I meant to pronounce 'uj'? I've read that it's meant to be said as 'ooey' from 'gooey' compressed into one syllable - the closest I can get is the sound 'wee'. Which, in fairness, is unique in Esperanto. Is this correct? Or close enough for it to count?
Second. Is there a pre/suffix for 'stop'? I've looked through a fair number of lists and haven't found one. As in, to be able to say 'I stopped attending that lecture course', or something similar. Would the verb 'to cease' followed by the infinitive of 'to attend' suffice here?
Third. 'Ig' the suffix 'adds an object' to the verb. How do you distinguish which object relates to the verb and which to the cause? For example, 'I made my student write an essay' - would student, the object connected to the cause, or essay, the object of the verb 'to write', be accusative? Or would they both be, and we add some sort of preposition in Esperanto?
Thanks for any help.
First, how am I meant to pronounce 'uj'? I've read that it's meant to be said as 'ooey' from 'gooey' compressed into one syllable - the closest I can get is the sound 'wee'. Which, in fairness, is unique in Esperanto. Is this correct? Or close enough for it to count?
Second. Is there a pre/suffix for 'stop'? I've looked through a fair number of lists and haven't found one. As in, to be able to say 'I stopped attending that lecture course', or something similar. Would the verb 'to cease' followed by the infinitive of 'to attend' suffice here?
Third. 'Ig' the suffix 'adds an object' to the verb. How do you distinguish which object relates to the verb and which to the cause? For example, 'I made my student write an essay' - would student, the object connected to the cause, or essay, the object of the verb 'to write', be accusative? Or would they both be, and we add some sort of preposition in Esperanto?
Thanks for any help.
T0dd (顯示個人資料) 2011年1月26日下午11:21:48
Gesar:Hi all. Again.First of all, these aren't silly questions.
First, how am I meant to pronounce 'uj'? I've read that it's meant to be said as 'ooey' from 'gooey' compressed into one syllable - the closest I can get is the sound 'wee'. Which, in fairness, is unique in Esperanto. Is this correct? Or close enough for it to count?
The UJ sound in TUJ is indeed the "ooey" sound compressed into one syllable. If that's not helpful, think of the English words "two years". The "oo" sound in "two" followed by the 'y' in "years" is just what you want.
Second. Is there a pre/suffix for 'stop'? I've looked through a fair number of lists and haven't found one. As in, to be able to say 'I stopped attending that lecture course', or something similar. Would the verb 'to cease' followed by the infinitive of 'to attend' suffice here?Yes, that's right. ĈESI will do just fine. There's no special prefix or suffix for this.
Third. 'Ig' the suffix 'adds an object' to the verb. How do you distinguish which object relates to the verb and which to the cause? For example, 'I made my student write an essay' - would student, the object connected to the cause, or essay, the object of the verb 'to write', be accusative? Or would they both be, and we add some sort of preposition in Esperanto?This question goes a bit deeper. Stricly, the -IG suffix makes the verb causative. So if MORTI means "to die", then MORTIGI means "to cause to die" or to kill. But it gets complicated when used with verbs that already normally have a direct object, such as SKRIBI. We write letters, paragraphs, novels, and so on. So if you're going to use SKRIBIGI, you have to decide what is the direct object, the student or the sentence.
My first reaction to this kind of situation is to suggest that you consider whether you really need a causative here. You can use FARI to indicate that you "made" your students do something, but you should also consider other verbs. Maybe you ordered, instructed, commanded, forced, urged, persuaded, or cajoled them. In each case, you might find a more fitting Esperanto verb.
But when the -IG route is the best route, you can usually choose which way you want to go.
MI MANĜIGIS ŜIN PER SUPO.
MI MANĜIGIS AL ŜI SUPON.
Both forms express what you want to say. You can even do the Esperanto adverbial dance, which I think is one of the inspired aspects of Esperanto...
MI MANĜIGIS ŜIN SUPE.
It's all good.
sudanglo (顯示個人資料) 2011年1月26日下午11:54:46
I made my student write an essay - Mi devigis lin verki eseon.
I would not use 'fari' here. You can, of course, say Mi igis la studenton verki eseon, but it wouldn't be my first choice.
There isn't a prefix which is the opposite of 'ek', and nobody seems to have wanted to experiment with 'mal-ek'. As Todd says use ĉesi.
Perhaps you can also use 'fini' sometimes, but not as a prefix. Li fintrinkis sian kafon means he drank up (finished off) his coffee rather than he stopped drinking his coffee, I think.
Mi ĉesis fumi antaŭ unu jaro - I stopped smoking a year ago. Ĉesigi tiun bruon - stop that noise.
I would not use 'fari' here. You can, of course, say Mi igis la studenton verki eseon, but it wouldn't be my first choice.
There isn't a prefix which is the opposite of 'ek', and nobody seems to have wanted to experiment with 'mal-ek'. As Todd says use ĉesi.
Perhaps you can also use 'fini' sometimes, but not as a prefix. Li fintrinkis sian kafon means he drank up (finished off) his coffee rather than he stopped drinking his coffee, I think.
Mi ĉesis fumi antaŭ unu jaro - I stopped smoking a year ago. Ĉesigi tiun bruon - stop that noise.
erinja (顯示個人資料) 2011年1月27日上午1:16:39
Regarding the uj sound, if you are at all familiar with Spanish, it's like the Spanish uy. Think "muy bien!". That word "muy" would be written as "muj" in Esperanto.
On the -ig- question, the word "al" can be helpful.
-ig- verbs are a little complicated because the object of the verb can be either the object of the original action, OR the subject of the original verb.
scii(to know) and sciigi (to let [someone] know) is a common example.
Mi scias la informon = I know the information
Mi sciigas vin pri la informo = I let you know about the information.
Mi sciigas la informon al vi = I let the information be known to you.
The meaning of my second and third sentence is pretty much the same.
Therefore the example with "skribigi" could be written like this:
Mi skribigis al li la eseon. I caused him to write the essay. (or "Mi skribigis la eseon al li")
Technically we could say "Mi skribigas vin pri la eseo" or something like that, but it's unclear which preposition is appropriate for "eseo", so I think the "al" version that I previously gave is preferable.
(note that "Mi skribigas vin la eseon" is not permitted - you can choose only one "type" of object, and the other 'object' of the action has to be set off with a preposition)
On the -ig- question, the word "al" can be helpful.
-ig- verbs are a little complicated because the object of the verb can be either the object of the original action, OR the subject of the original verb.
scii(to know) and sciigi (to let [someone] know) is a common example.
Mi scias la informon = I know the information
Mi sciigas vin pri la informo = I let you know about the information.
Mi sciigas la informon al vi = I let the information be known to you.
The meaning of my second and third sentence is pretty much the same.
Therefore the example with "skribigi" could be written like this:
Mi skribigis al li la eseon. I caused him to write the essay. (or "Mi skribigis la eseon al li")
Technically we could say "Mi skribigas vin pri la eseo" or something like that, but it's unclear which preposition is appropriate for "eseo", so I think the "al" version that I previously gave is preferable.
(note that "Mi skribigas vin la eseon" is not permitted - you can choose only one "type" of object, and the other 'object' of the action has to be set off with a preposition)
T0dd (顯示個人資料) 2011年1月27日上午1:46:13
sudanglo:I made my student write an essay - Mi devigis lin verki eseon.Yes! DEVIGI is the best choice here. It simply means "I REQUIRED them to write an essay" and that's just perfect here. It's a good example of what Esperanto can do, too. Literally, "I caused them to have to".
jchthys (顯示個人資料) 2011年1月27日上午2:40:12
erinja:This is interesting. I had always thought that having two objects was allowable, even the correct way. Now I need to look around for all the Esperanto I've written to correct...
(note that "Mi skribigas vin la eseon" is not permitted - you can choose only one "type" of object, and the other 'object' of the action has to be set off with a preposition)
By the way, regarding the UJ question: What's wrong with "wee" is that it makes the U into a consonant (that is, the one that gets really short). It should be the J that gets really short instead. The "muy bien" comparison is good.
johmue (顯示個人資料) 2011年1月27日上午8:30:59
darkweasel:Such -ig sentences can be ambiguous concerning who causes whom to do what.I'd say "verki eseon". The task of writing an essay is much more than just writing it down.
If the meaning is not clear from context and you cannot think of any alternative, you can use something like:
Mi igis la lernanton skribi eseon.
I would say it this way: "Mi taskigis la lernanton verki eseon."
An example which is a bit more awkward is that one: "La reĝo konstruigis kastelon." for "The king had a castle built."
Another example which shows that the word order in Esperanto can change the meaning of a sentence:
"Oni igis la soldatojn mortigi."
"Oni igis mortigi la soldatojn."
Johannes
